In the legends of early computer science you've probably heard of mathematician Grace Hopper she programmed Harvard's giant Mark one computer during World War 2 and helped make programming a language accessible to non-mathematicians How did you know so much about computers that. I didn't personally this hour the women who made the neck and the stories that have not been told and high school seniors have been in the news lately we'll meet one who wrote an algorithm designed to hunt down gender bias in movie reviews and news programs she created after experiencing gender discrimination herself we'll get that story after this. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm nor Rahm White House officials say there is no time or place set yet for a meeting between President Trump n. Korean leader Kim Jong un White House spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee Sanders said today the meeting won't happen at all unless North Korea Takes some concrete steps 1st if we can get to a place where North Korea is denuclearize I think that is a massive step and it's something that will make the entire globe much safer and even President Moon has said that this is because of the leadership of President Trump she said for the 1st time in a long time the u.s. Is in a position of strength in dealing with North Korea the European Union says it expects to be among those trading partners that will not be subject to new u.s. Tariffs on steel and aluminum from Brussels Teri Schultz reports intense transatlantic negotiations continue European trade commissioner Cecilia mom's Germans expressing Europe's outrage that President Trump went ahead with plans to impose a steel tariff she says this is the wrong way to handle mutual concerns about overcapacity in the global steel sector and monster notes the e.u. Is particularly disturbed by Trump's justification of the moves as a national security necessity be a fence we are allies we work together we cannot possibly be a threat to national security in the u.s. So we are counting on being excluded most Jim says Trump's intentions are not yet clear regarding Europe she says she expects more details at a meeting with u.s. Trade representative Robert light hisor Saturday for n.p.r. News I'm Terry Schultz in Brussels that apartment of Education has released a document that shows it wants to protect companies that service student loans from state efforts to crack down on them N.P.R.'s Corey Turner reports in states around the country loan servicers have been accused of misleading student borrowers and mismanaging loan payments as a result a handful of states are suing and many more have begun toughening requirements forcing loan. Companies to be more transparent this document from the department says that the state rules should not apply because loan servicers are governed exclusively by Federal Law The move comes after a bipartisan group of 26 state attorneys general urged Secretary Betsy Deval to quote reject an ongoing campaign by student loan servicers and debt collectors to secure immunity for themselves from state level oversight and in force meant Cory Turner n.p.r. News Washington the Labor Department says the u.s. Economy added 313000 jobs last month the greatest increase in more than a year and a half the unemployment rate remained unchanged at 4 point one percent economists say this shows more people have entered the labor force and are more confident about finding work stock prices continue to rise at this point the Dow is up $376.00 points the s. And p. Is up $41.00 this is n.p.r. News from k.q.e.d. News I'm Brian Watt alarming developments in Napa County a state run facility there considered to be the largest veterans home in the country is on lockdown after reports of a shooting and a hostage taking heat east head Goldberg joins us now Ted what have you learned about what's going on at the young Bill veterans home grow Brian a spokeswoman for the California Department of Veteran Affairs says law enforcement responded to the home the veterans home this morning after reports of gunfire near the facilities main dining hall all of the residents and staff are sheltering in place inside the veteran's home and Napa County fire official told The Associated Press that an armed man has taken 3 hostages the school district there the Napa Valley Unified School District says the elementary school in the area was briefly placed on lockdown but that has since been lifted we have not yet heard of any injuries k.q.e.d. Is Alex Emsley is also here he has been monitoring dispatch audio Alex what are you hearing. Well it appears that police officers that are surrounding this facility now have caught some glimpse of a suspect repeatedly they've described a person with a shotgun and an m. 4 assault style rifle with a scope wearing unknown body armor yellow colored shooting glasses and they've given snipers the green light Wow. Alex Emsley and Ted Goldberg meaning him is actually heading to the scene she will update us throughout the day I'm Brian Watt this is k.q.e.d. News. Thank you Brian and support comes from adaptive insights maker of software for people who plan to visit adaptive insights dot com to learn more about its business planning cloud and support for n.p.r. Comes from a mile from Mile like you the mile like you app automatically tracks business miles to streamline and maximize to do actions or expenses the mile i.q. App is available for download in the App Store and Google Play and by the listeners of k.q.e.d. We should see rain tomorrow around the bay area particularly in the South Bay Monterey heading north through the Santa Cruz area and into the South Bay Tonight a 10 percent chance of showers tomorrow the chance increases to 30 by Saturday night a 50 percent chance of showers or rain I should say temperatures today around the bay low to upper sixty's. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow Here's a number for you from 1000000 number 1984 No I'm not talking about the George Orwell novel I'm talking about the year that women's numbers started to decline in computer science until 1904 the number of women with computer science degrees had been rising steadily those studying computer science went from 15 percent women in 1970 to 35 percent in 1904 and then it all started to go down today women only hold about a quarter of computing jobs this problem this problem is well documented and much be mown but it might surprise you to hear that before this decline women had their hands all over tech remember the hidden figures of gnats as human computers that's not the only story of women's early participation in tech women where programmers and engineers helped build some of the structure of our modern internet Univac to Arpanet to hypertext they built social networks they helped the Internet become a place where. Information had meaning and interconnection and don't forget Ada Lovelace who wrote the 1st algorithm for a computer here to tell some of these stories is clear evidence she's author of a new book a broadband The Untold Story of the women who made the Internet and you want to know if you're a woman who was on line or just into computing in its early days give us a call our number a full 47248255 each for foresight talk where you can tweet us at psi Friday on the Welcome to Science Friday Claire. Thanks it's nice and nice to have you you told my producer this book came from a crisis of faith you had about your place as a woman on the Internet Yeah well I grew up online essentially I'm of the generation where although I can remember a time before the weather it's not very clear for me I grew up learning how to write on the internet I saw text on the screen and empowered me as a young writer my father worked for Intel I had computers in the home growing up I always felt that the Internet was my country in some way but in the last few years I started to feel a little bit disconnected from it unsure if as a woman I had a place on the internet anymore I felt more vulnerable I felt like it was harder to express myself as freely as I had in my early days online so yeah the book comes from that that it's out there to resolve your issues that I don't know about the future but I'm certainly much more confident about the past when we were 1st we 1st broadcast our show on the Internet in 1993 we did a show called What's this thing called the Internet I would love to hear that it's great we play a lot it it's true that our guests are mostly men we had Brewster Kahle and Carl Malamud And we're also spoke with Gene Polley Nizer net the member that want it all and we heard from several women including a university research librarian who raved about how the Internet had changed her work so where do you where exactly do you think women stories and. And why have they been left out of the history of the Internet well the Internet is an interesting case because it was developed by the Department of Defense and to serve the needs of computer scientists and engineers at the highest levels of academic computer science so by definition it was a very male dominated environment in terms of the infrastructure but women have always found ways to position themselves even within those kinds of spaces I mean one of the most fascinating characters I think in my book is a woman who ran what was called the network information center of the early Arpanet the 1st version of the Internet she was the secretary the air traffic control the librarian the sort of head information resource of the network she wasn't a computer scientist but she brought a lot of value to organizing the information on that network and connecting people on it which tends to be a theme if you look at the history of women in computing and also in my book you know as Jack finally That's Jake finally yeah you're reading your book I learned a lot of new stories I've been reading living the internet for my whole career but 2 of the names you write about are absolutely familiar you to love lists and Grace Hopper Yes now I have a particular soft spot for Grace Hopper because she I remember she did an interview with David Letterman in 1986 and we has one of my favorite clips I played as much as I can and you work on the original computer in this country right now is very fortunate the Navy I mean to big computer and United States Mark one of Harvard called Mark want to harbor in those days the thing was at the one feet long 8 feet and 8 feet deep and that was the pocket model. Used to put it on a little tiny corner which now now what how did you know so much about computers that I didn't I didn't 1st one yeah. In fact I had to learn a lot of things one day commander in came around to my desk and said you're going to write a book or I should i can't write a book you said you're in the. Maybe now I wrote a book you had to write a book and that was outlining the entire manual of the computer and that really set the stage for other people who follow right she was the best Her name is not credited on that manual by the way is that right you know so she just didn't just program the Mark one she also helped make programming excessive bull to the rest of us and for people who came later yes exactly I mean she when she came into her job as a programmer there was no precedent there's no established system she had to learn how the machine works from wiring diagrams and from taking it apart she bootlegged her own engineering education and then she didn't only sort of refine the methods by which we operate programs on those on those old school computers but after the war she dedicated a great deal of her career to establishing systems by which programmers could make that their job could be made easier centrally and she invented the 1st compiler she pushed for what was then called automatic programming which was a way for programmers to step to a level above the machine level and sort of begin to think more symbolically about their work which is I would argue what sort of catalyzed the development of programming as a discipline as an art form and as a language should I remember from the back in the day Cobol she invented Cobol which was used by everybody the grandmother was kind of all yeah Yes Amazing yeah at the same time the grace was changing the field of programming a group of women were programming the Eniac the 1st successful ballistic demonstrations why exactly did then they didn't get credit until many years later they did not get credit for it for 50 years until they finally got sick and tired of it all and thought to tell their own stories which is very important for women to remember to do sometimes and why were they not well back in those days there wasn't much of a distinction made between hardware and software software was you know considered to be the menial manipulation of the hardware it was kind of subservient to the hardware it wasn't you know it took many years for programming to be seen as a kind of art form or something with the real power to change the world. The people who operated the ne Act were you know they came from Applied Mathematics they were doing sort of the grunt work of the scientific age they were mathematicians but really they were seen as on the level with you know telephone operators or secretaries It was seen as clerical work not as significant so it wasn't until the significance of that work became clear that well of the people want to take the credit for it as they always do if you didn't have an advanced degree or a degree in Computer Science or some sort of thing of the men and you were in like that yes I would you commit Yeah exactly I mean part of the decline of women in computing coincides with the development of the sort of professionalization of the field when it's important they came recognised programming was sort of implicitly there was a semantic shift you know they stopped calling it programming they started calling it software engineering and software engineering has its own established sort of professional canon and it's got a clear chain of you know a linear chain of educational press Harmon's that you have to have in order to become an engineer so that kind of edged women out of the field just as they were most needed and we can thank Elizabeth Jane finally for our handy dandy domain sorting system dot edu dot com Yeah she's sort of a one woman Google of her time yes she was the one person I mean back in the early days of the Arpanet the Internet there was no interface for navigating those resources if you wanted to use a computer at a distance you had to know what was on that computer and so what Jake did was she created the sort of white pages the yellow pages of the Internet she was the one person who knew where everything was if you had a question about the Internet for 20 years you called a phone number in her office and she answered or one of her employees answered and told you how to have access to the thing you needed to frame I'm going to think about id stories about women or Internet pioneers who happened to be women I think it's a story about underdogs frankly you know. Who happen to be women yes for me listen I think. It's not so much that I want to counter great man history with great woman history I think people often do that with people like Ada Lovelace and Grace Hopper that easy to point to and say here's this amazing woman for me what's more interesting is simply providing more complexity and more nuance to the stories of the technologies that have changed our world and one way to do that is to tap into the amazing resource of all these extra people that were also in the room at the time and hear what they had to say about what it was like if there is if there is there a benefit to a gender difference between the women who were designing computers and the men did the women bring a certain feeling to it that the men didn't I always want to stay away from this idea that there is something essentially you know feminine about a certain approach to computing that being said if you look at the history of computing and you're looking for women you tend to find them in these spaces that are more user oriented Now that might just be a consequence of where it was easier to you know get purchase as a as an academic or a computer scientist as a woman but I think that there may be something there you know I think that a concern for and care for users and how people actually employ technology is really really important and it has been somewhat ignored I think in other history because you were reading your book you see the women of the ones who are the communicators yet and for sure they realize the power of communication and the way to open up computers to everybody is to my you know great opera did find a way to communicate with them exactly I mean Grace Hopper was I think her biggest legacy is that she fought really hard to make computers accessible to non-programmers which at the time was not an easy feat but we talk a lot about machines and when we think about the history of computers we think of a sequence of machines but really it's not the machines that change the world it's the users and I think emphasizing the importance of use is something that we need to be really be doing especially more and more now as technologies really have an outsized effect on you know the disruption of communities and cities and entire workplaces and environments and it's all about the user are number 84472425. 5 hour we're talking about the lower in talking with Claire Evans who is author of broadband The Untold Story of the women who made the Internet and were trying to tell a little bit of their story there's so many stories that you have to limit how many women you could talk about yes I did I didn't when I 1st started working on this book I felt the real burden of responsibility of wanting to include every single excluded name and I think I could have written an encyclopedia there are so many stories beyond the ones that I included in the Book Volume 2 broader band the sign it's personal Oh well that's good is that you already have the title thing like publishing would go for it are you going to take a break come back more on talk more with that clear Evans author of the broadband The Untold Story of the woman who made the Internet also we're going to talk about some of the early Internet that Stacy Horn is again to join us she's going to be talking about the early days of what was the Internet like maybe you can go back and remember what it was like in those days in the early eighty's if you were part of it give us a call 8 for 472 for a 255 and also fee if you're a woman who was involved in computing in those days you can also reach your 244724255 or tweet us at Science Friday we'll be right back after this break. I'm Ira Flatow this is Science Friday from n.p.r. On support for k.q.e.d. Comes from like me in makers of Go To Meeting a collaborative meeting platform with over 18000000 monthly users designed to connect people from anywhere in the world on any device learn more and go to meeting dot come and stand for children's health and Lucile Packard Children's Hospital delivering nationally recognized complex neurosurgical care for comprehensive pediatric neurological conditions such as brain tumors and epilepsy Stanford children's dot org On the next fresh air we hear from most and Hammad this timely bestselling novel is about knowing when it's time to flee or. Entry and what happens when you do one become an immigrant in another country that's hostile to immigrants lives in the more Pakistan but is also lived in California New York and London joined. Fresh air it's up this afternoon one with a rebroadcast tonight at 7 o'clock right now it's 1220. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow we're talking about the beginning the untold story of the women who made the Internet the broadband book by Claire Evans. About her new book a lot to talk about