K.q.e.d. Dot org the time 9 o'clock. From k.q.e.d. Public Radio in San Francisco I'm Michael Krasny months of protests this year over police killings of black people of. The Bay Area to put police reform on the ballot this November the details on those measures But 1st President Trump took to Twitter last night condemning Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer for not thanking him after the f.b.i. For oil a right wing domestic terrorist plot to kidnap her as Democrats slam the president for enabling the attempted attack with his rhetoric. The White House still refuses to disclose the president's test results will try to make sense of it all and that's next after this news. Live from n.p.r. News I'm Lakshmi saying the White House says President Trump is waiting to get the all clear from his doctor to go out and campaign again this even though the administration's own Centers for Disease Control and Prevention advises that anyone with covert 19 May need to isolate for up to 20 days from the time they display symptoms Well the president's doctor says his client should be able to make a safe return to public engagements as soon as tomorrow maybe 10 days after the White House says Trump tests a positive for Corona virus but as N.P.R.'s Selena Simmons deafening splaying many public health experts are still worried that might be too soon c.d.c. Guidelines say when it comes to mild cases you're likely no longer infectious 10 days after you 1st experience symptoms but that period is 20 days for people who had more severe illness there isn't a lot of public information about the president's illness including when his symptoms began or how seriously sick he was so public health experts worry that he's ending his isolation too early and could be putting others at risk silliness and stuff in n.p.r. News alarmed by President Trump's conduct House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says the Democratic majority in the House is moving forward on a bill that would allow Congress to intervene under the 25th Amendment to the Constitution to remove a president from office based on his or her physical or psychological fitness This is not about President Trump he will face the judgment of the voters but he shows the need for us to create a process for future presidents this coming as Speaker Pelosi questions whether drugs the president was taking for covert 1000 might have been affecting his judgment she raised concerns after the president abruptly halted coronavirus relief talks when they were not going the way he wanted blowsy tells Imus n.b.c. She plans to hold negotiations later today with Treasury Secretary Stephen minutiae . Federal and state authorities in Michigan continue to investigate a for oil plot by suspected domestic terrorist to kidnap Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer from member station. In East Lansing Abigail sense he reports President Trump has tweeted that Whitman has done that terrible job as governor and should thank him the president's tweet called on Widmer to open up the state schools and churches many of which are already open churches and Michigan never closed other businesses like bowling alleys and movie theaters are set to reopen today after the state Supreme Court issued a landmark ruling that up ended the governor's emergency powers many of Governor winters executive orders are enforceable until the legislature codified his new ones the State Department of Health and Human Services has stepped in with emergency orders that outpolled basic code in 1000 precautions like a statewide mask mandate and restrictions on the size of gatherings for n.p.r. News I'm Abigail Sensi and Lansing this is n.p.r. Live from k.q.e.d. News I'm Brian Watt Oscar Grant's family is calling on Alameda County prosecutors to provide details on their recent decision to reopen the case of his killing former Bart Officer Johannes measuredly was convicted of involuntary manslaughter for shooting Grant to death on the Fruitvale platform a decade ago Grant's mother Wanda Johnson says another former officer was also responsible for her son's death our war room for the Anthony family charged. With the killing on my song. And then I want to distribute trade to the very. Serious paid to do. In this case is going to be. An internal probe found that Peroni is aggressive profane and racist behavior on the platform started a set of events that led to the shooting the d.a. Declined to comment San Francisco city leaders are due. Nown seeing recent attacks against 2 elderly Asian American women they were assaulted in the Tenderloin last month arrests have been made in both cases Cynthia Chase is with Chinese Americans for affirmative action and saddened and I'm deeply saddened that you know you have yet another attack against committee members you know this this isn't the see the 1st set of incidents but it seems to be a pattern targeting vulnerable members of our community advocates say Asian Americans are being targeted and blamed for the pandemic in part because of President Trump's rhetoric quick sports the A's are out the 49 ers host the Dolphins on Sunday San Jose Earthquakes take on the Portland Timbers Sunday as well I'm Brian Watt k.q.e.d. News support comes from your Samedi Mer oppose the county learn about the county's lodging options where folks can stay work and learn remotely at Yosemite dot com support for n.p.r. Comes from the 3rd Doris Duke Charitable Foundation which aims to improve the quality of people's lives through grants supporting Child Wellbeing the environment medical research and the performing arts and by the listeners of k.q.e.d. Some top temperatures today San Carlos n c 6872 expected in San Jose in Sacramento it should reach 75 and in Walnut Creek 7366 expected here in San Francisco. Welcome to forum I'm Michael Krasny this morning House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced legislation to create a commission to allow Congress to intervene under the 25th Amendment and remove future presidents from office a president's fitness for office must be determined by science and facts and this legislation applies to future presidents but we are reminded of the necessity of action by the health of the current president the announcement came as the White House corona virus outbreak continues to widen and officials remain invasive about the president's test results before and after his hospitalization for call the 19 Meanwhile the f.b.i. Announced yesterday that for all the right wing domestic terrorist plot to kidnap Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer and Senate confirmation hearings on Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett began on Monday over Democrats strenuous objection that the winner of the November election should pick the nominee will unpack the latest news and joining us Peter Baker chief White House correspondent for The New York Times Good morning Peter and welcome to morning Ok Well despite that little oral surgery and I'm glad to be with you also going to welcome Susan Glasser staff writer with The New Yorker and Susan welcome to the program thanks very much for having me glad to have you both and they're both co-authors of a new book called The man who ran Washington The Life and Times of James a Baker the 3rd I just got the p.d.f. Recently but I have had enough time to read what I believe is a very nuanced and detail portrait of James Baker who was enormously influential in shaping the way politics have gone certainly in recent years and continue to go let me thank you both for being here and let me launch right into this by asking whether you think there's going to be a 2nd debate a virtual debate and I say whether you think that way because the president has said he will not hold a virtual debate a 2nd debate but he also said he would meet with. Congress or go forward with any stimulus package talk. Well that's true everything changes by the day sometimes by the hour but at the moment there's a standoff about a 2nd debate the debate commission commission that organized and says there will be virtually no not change their mind about of the president says he won't step out of wall space in a virtual. That in this doctor is clearly the participate in public events as of tomorrow and therefore the vice president should meet in Miami next Thursday anyway so I think that moment so I wouldn't count on there being debate but you know anything can happen and then anything may happen with the stimulus talks as well so . They moving forward there's talk about a $1200.00 new stimulus check and also talk about well from the mainly from Larry Kudlow about the president having stand alone bills on employment for example in schools yeah I think the Democrats have rejected that approach and they've been trying to get Republicans to come to the table and the largest obstacle has been the president as well as Senate Republicans in fact just 2 days ago the president said he was canceling all talks before the election and then he now here sure changed his mind again you know it's always been a political mystery to me why the president has not been more eager to make a deal with Democrats and to you know usually politicians election year are eager to send money to their constituents and see that as as politically beneficial to them it's been kind of perplexing and of course really worrisome that there's been no new stimulus passed by our government since the end of April so I'm dubious frankly at this point that there can be any actual final passage of a big sweeping deal like this before the election was that so few days to go but I think both sides have a certain impetus in at least the period to take this seriously so I think we may see them continuing to talk over the next few days listen to. Susan mentions mystery in perplexity Peter let me go to you about the mystery in perplexity over the president's testing with Corona virus at this point it's almost the who appears to be to many to be a cover up that we don't know and nothing is transparent Well that's exactly right they haven't yet told us the last time I had a negative task they wouldn't tell us the 1st time we had a positive test and it's really hard to know the course of a disease unless you know those things right Dr White House's ition who was a Navy doctor and not a political person has acted almost as if he's a political person by releasing statements that even he acknowledged were deeply rosy in order to satisfy his patient. Releasing only partial information holding back on other information so he's really hard at this point you know what kind of press it really is in the sound of the raspy last nigh on the fall we saw on Hannity clears throat a couple times but obviously not a hospital so we don't really know exactly where he stands in the progression of this disease Well there's so much Sunpak here and I mention in the introduction Susan Glasser the attempted kidnap of Michigan governor City Michigan governor Christian Whitmer the president will essentially condemn her for not thanking him I mean this is kind of hard to get your head around but. He said the you know the f.b.i. Intervened and it was almost as if he was trying to take responsibility for that intervention and uncovering the domestic terror plot by some Michigan militia members what do you make of this. Yeah I mean usually you know in this country when somebody is the victim of active you know potential act of terrorism we tend to come together and to say you know express our concerns and of course President Trump has made a particular target of Governor Whitman and she yesterday came out very strongly and said you know that she thinks the president's dangerous rhetoric had something to do with this he tweeted of course. Famously or infamously liberate Michigan it's appears that soon after that is when this alleged plot began against the governor it's really it's quite extraordinary. Statement about where we're at in this country you know that you know this rhetoric may be in fact activating the kind of violent contemplated violence you know this is something that you know somebody said yesterday this is the kind of story that I used to file from Iraq. It's not something that we're used to writing about in the United States and the president's actions toward Governor Whitman from the beginning of the pandemic have been extraordinary he has made a sustained assault on her and other Democratic governors and mayors here who chose to challenge his mishandling of the pandemic. Bears some serious thinking about but the president I think Peter Baker was also in Governor Whitman was also implying that the president's rhetoric goes back to well the day when he was talking about the Prague ways and saying that they should stand firm and stand proud or stand by really alternately wondering about just something about the problem is though that they're continuously characterized as white supremacists and that they have blacks and Latinos pretty high up in their organization I don't know what we're to make of that but they are clearly right wing and right wing domestic terrorists terrorists often how they're described. Well this the president doesn't want to talk about that his own f.b.i. Director Chris Ray has said that white supremacists and Lissa groups are really up there as the top domestic threat to the country but the president chided him publicly for saying. We see a president who wants to focus on. What he calls the left wing violence and that obviously is part of his political campaign this fall he won't dress in any state extended right any way you know right wing violence or groups like. By the way if you would like to join us let me invite you to do that now we're talking generally about fast moving developments in Washington and that are happening with this administration we do indeed want to hear your thoughts and you can join us at our toll free number I invite you to do that the number to call is 866-733-6786 that number again 866-733-6786 or get in touch on Twitter and Facebook we're at k.q.e.d. Forum or e-mail any questions or comments you might have to forum at k.q.e.d. Dot org We'll talk with you both also about what's coming up on Monday with the Supreme Court confirmation hearings but 1st Susan let me go to you and by we're talking Peter Baker and Susan Glasser Peter Baker sheaf White House correspondent of The New York Times and Susan Glasser a staff writer with The New Yorker and they are co-authors of a new book called The man who ran Washington The Life and Times of James a Baker the 3rd. Speaker Pelosi has indeed called forth. What can be at least a consideration a commission to talk about physical and mental health of these of the the 25th Amendment and what this would mean is that a president can be declared disabled or removed in voluntarily by joint agreement but it gets into the weeds here a little bit because it would require the vice president in the majority cabinet ultimately but Speaker Pelosi has said Susan Glasser to which she's concerned about her future presidents. Up Well that's right I mean you know she has said that obviously their timing of this announcement and doing it right before. Doing it right before the election is meant to cast in sharp relief the current very erratic behavior of the president having a serious and potentially lethal disease just you know literally days before the election so it's what they used to call a messaging bill on Capitol Hill it's not it's not that this is going to become law and in fact current events but it's meant to send a message about them and you know again I think even many Republicans are concerned about the. Very sort of perplexing and you know almost breathtaking shifts of mood and decision making from the president and remember his own staff at the White House and real risk out it's not just the present but there's actually a cluster of coronavirus cases right now at the White House and surrounding the White House that that's the largest source of infections in the city of Washington d.c. Itself right now and so I think you see actually probably a lot of White House officials who don't know what to think and are worried about their own health and safety being put at risk attention by their boss the president has been characterized by many as a super spreader and he was ranting against his own cabinet members he was talking about not finding pump aoe not finding Hillary's e-mails about Barra not responding enough to his wish to actually prosecute Hillary Rodham Clinton and other Democrats and going after Christopher rate who you mentioned before Peter Baker for not investigating widespread fraud as he described the claims of widespread fraud with respect to elections what is this doing for coming up on a quick break here but Peter was doing for his own connection to all those who are under him. Yeah I think that he's making very clear his political preferences right now certainly in public what he said yesterday I thought was really if he actually said he's been doing prior to when Bill Barr is telling him he doesn't have enough evidence to prosecute Democrats and wants to gather more 1st presence that he has told him specifically Bill you have enough go ahead and do it that I think is an extra wrinkle in what we've seen in the president wants to use the law enforcement to prosecute his enemies we're going to go away for about 60 seconds we'll continue when we come back and we'll try to get some of your calls on you can call us at 866-733-6786 I'm Michael Krasny. Support for k.q.e.d. Comes from. Sram founders of the Minetti from Museum of Art at u.c. Davis which preserves the legacy of renowned artists such as Wayne T.-Bo for future innovators by dedicating a 3rd of its space to arts education Schoenberg Family Law Group family law firm specializing in high asset complex divorce and custody litigation throughout the Bay Area learn more at s f l g dot com. And a little bit of music here and now coming up today at 12 here on k.q.e.d. Public Radio. This is forum I'm Michael Krasny we're talking about rather rapid moving developments in Washington with Susan Glasser staff writer for The New Yorker and Peter Baker chief White House correspond with the New York Times of a new book called The man who ran Washington The Life and Times of James a Baker the 3rd and we should mention the fact. That James Baker the 3rd pronounced president is being nuts. Well we had a very interesting you know sort of 5 year long conversation with Jim Baker about the question of President Trump and essentially his hostile takeover as Jerry question or put it recently Peter of the Republican Party Jim Baker sees himself as a builder of that modern Republican Party and you know has been very uncomfortable with the rise of President Trump not only because Trump as everyone knows has been very scathing about the Bush family with whom you know big risk associated for decades to George h.w. Bush was Jim Baker's best friend from the tennis courts the Houston country club and together of course they had a remarkable kind of turn in Washington throughout the eighty's and ninety's and you know interestingly though Baker unlike the Bush's chose very reluctantly in 2016 to vote for Trump he's now actually considering doing so again and it's really it's been you know kind of frustrating to have his dialogue with him and to have him on the one hand very critical of not just trying to character and the sort of incompetence of the administration Baker was a kind of renowned White House chief of staff very offended by just the turnover in the inconsistency of it but also on the substance he's been very critical he said at an event the other day you know the state of America's international Lysis is terrible so yet to see him still willing to consider voting for Trump I think has been you know instructive in terms of where the modern Republican Party is that are willing to vote for a person whom they distain both in terms of his character but also on many ideological grounds Well forgive me but the modern political Republican Party is not Jim Baker's Republican Party and he seems at least to it in some ways he can join. Rick Wilson Steve Schmidt Stuart Stevens Carly Fiorina and the list goes on and on of those members of the g.o.p. Who feel that this Republican Party is not the party that they belong to I want to talk with both of you about the upcoming Supreme Court confirmation hearings but let me 1st get a caller on Actually let me read an e-mail and then we get to a caller Trish writes It seems the president from knew that he was positive was covered before the events he attended including the debate as usual Mr Trump is to blame for a lot of illness but is doing everything in his power to prevent the dots from being connected once again escaping personal responsibility and it's from tradition here is Jim in Fairfield Jim join us. Thank you very much Michael there was a remarkable moment in the vice presidential debate where the moderator asked the question what happens if the president loses any doesn't leave the White House. And that question has never ever been asked in American history and then Kamel Harris's response was something like That's why everyone has to go out to vote and I thought it was a relatively lukewarm response she could've said if the president loses and Joe Biden is president he will physically remove him and so I was wondering if your guest could comment 1st on the fact that anyone ever had to ask that question and then 2nd why was the response is solved and I'll take my answer off the line thank you for the question Peter Baker you want to handle Yes not a question as to Bill he asked at a national presidential debate I think that's sort of kind of been an assumed. You know tradition that nobody really questioned up until now the president has made it very clear that he considers this election even though it hasn't been happy. To be illegitimate Unless of course it shows that he wins he has for months and in particular in your last few weeks and statically said that it's being rigged is being corrupt it's being stolen without any real hard evidence anything on widespread basis it's basically stuff he's going out there. Mostly in what is one of his former 2000 aides told me that this is just being done in order to create an excuse to point to if he does lose but has no consequence because if he does lose but but there is a close enough race that so suspicion with the public it undermines obviously their credibility and what legitimacy in American democracy so that's the real concern at this point and it's a concern and as we know the caller mentioned the vice presidential debate this was another one of those questions that was of a did both candidates the both the candidates for the vice presidency the president vice president and Senator Harris evaded a number of questions but. Those present tense. Managed to evade the whole question entirely about you know whether action should be taken if the Democrats when where and President Trump refuses to leave Yeah you're not going see my president parents allow any space to be seen between him and the president that's the sort of his way of operating at this point so he there well embrace whatever present the present of a sadder find ways of avoiding addressing that if he finds it something uncomfortable. And c.n.n. Is reporting let me go to you in a Susan Glasser the president trying to sign off on a roughly $1.00 trillion dollars stimulus proposal to present to Speaker Pelosi but if White House and Pelosi agree Will the Senate g.o.p. Go along. Well they have been the primary reason why there has not been more progress and you know up until now is that 2 trillion number has been you know sort of that the floor for the Democratic proposal you know they haven't been willing to go underneath so you know there's still some some distance between them it's also logistically at this point we're so close to the election and it's hard to see it promising what's interesting to me is President Trump's repeated flip flopping on this question just this week alone and it does Jesse understand the political peril he's in at this point you know so if you show weeks away from the election and he's trailing by double digits in the polls nationally of course it's extremely popular measure the idea of providing Americans with stimulus relief at this point you know with the economy looking like it's nowhere near the. Recovery that the president has been touting for so long but you know experience Capitol Hill watchers are still very dubious that this is actually going to pass a become law before the election and it's very likely in my view and a couple of e-mails I want to read here Stephanie writes What are we going to take seriously that we have a maniac president incites violence his 1st words after a governor is almost kidnapped emergence to blame or Marshal right saying Trump is not in the hospital misrepresents where he is he's living in an outpatient clinic that supposedly can handle a lot of his medical if not his psychiatric needs and let me bring another caller on Cohen joins us next call and good morning. Good morning Amy Tony Barrett accepted honoraria from the Alliance Defending Freedom Next an anti-gay organization that filed a break in the Lawrence versus Texas case arguing that American citizens should be arrested for being gay or lesbian she also signed a newspaper advertisement calling abortion barbaric implicitly arguing that women who exercise their abortion rights are baby killers should the Democrats avoid criticize them criticism of Barrett's extreme views the Republicans obviously are going to say that's attacking her religion however most Americans do support Roe versus Wade as well as same sex marriage. Thank you for the question and Susan Glasser your take yes look I mean you know I think of course a person especially a potential Supreme Court justices. Articulated policy views are not only fair game by very much up at the heart of this what I've been struck by is how Republicans you know were determined to pursue this line of criticism against Democrats that that they are attacking someone's religion and that they are you know saxes that they are going after Judge Barrett no matter what Democrats said in the 1st 24 hours after the super spreader and that was the announcement of Judge Wright in fact that's exactly what they did Democrats were extremely restrained and disciplined I thought and I was curious about this and then I went my I looked at Fox and I looked at some of the conservative commentators fascinating was like essentially the Democrats didn't do what we want and they didn't fall into our trap but we're just going to ignore that and say it anyways and I think right now that tells you a lot about our politics both sides are just saying what they plan to say to their own base is anyways and you know that's what happens I guess this close to an election we've given up on persuading people and it's all about mobilizing those who we think are already on our side and what's interesting is are we seeing a situation where the traditional political calculus around the Supreme Court that it's motivating Republicans more than Democrats even on the abortion issue that that's going to be more Aleck Tory effective for anti-abortion forces than for abortion rights supporters I think we are potentially looking at a bending match you know you see obviously public opinion polls show a broad swath of Americans including many Republicans who are in favor of abortion rights who are in favor of upholding Roe versus Wade you know the very heavy handed decision of Republicans to proceed. With disappointment before the election again extremely unpopular even among many Republican voters public opinion polls show a very strong majority of Americans are against this move before the election and so I think it may prove to be more of a motivator for Democrats than Republicans this year but you know it'll be interesting to see have the senators actually handle it at the hearing and remember that. From one point of view alone it's kind of strong her trunk which is every minute that we're not talking about the coronavirus you know from his point of view is a good minute political Well in fact. One can't escape the fact I think that the hearings will be largely tiptoeing around certain kinds of things but they can't with the coronavirus mean the Democrats Chuck Schumer has said Peter Baker that health care health care health care is what she ought to be essentially asked about and particularly with respect to her positions that she has forged in the past through that use taken in the past but they're going to have the do this in conjunction with the coronavirus and they're going to have to try to as they say tiptoe around it because of the they don't want to go the kavanah route they don't want this to be a spectacle and I think they also are very wary of making anything seem like an attack on religion particularly after our own Senator Feinstein said something about the dog lives loudly in you so we're going to we're going to see something that's on the one hand supposedly avoiding politics where the Democrats are concerned but trying to indeed make politics a big part of it now it's inevitable course and look there's they're going to try they're going to try to course the argument that Obamacare is on the line. Coming Supreme Court. It's probably mostly real experts talk to us don't think this case is quite that the case the Democrats are making it out to be that's not likely to actually overturn Obamacare altogether but obviously it does remind us that issues like Obamacare are what matter at the Supreme Court and you know Chief Justice Roberts who was twice voted to uphold it you know could lose that majority . In the county back different he did right at one point that John asked you Justice Roberts rationale for preserving Obamacare and one of his earlier decisions strained you know strain the language or Wa. Jeffrey seemed to suggest it was a wrongly decided decision that or me she would you know tell us what she's going to do on a future decision. Certainly eyeliner Here are a lot of the Democrats and one reason is because 2018 health care they feel like even more than trop was a useful line of attack for them in the mid-term elections they want to try to focus on as much as they can in these final 25 days and let me read some comments that are coming in Rosie rights trump was chaotic bitter invention before taking dexamethasone But now that he's taking to Exmouth his own he's become downright on hands shame on the doctors for obfuscating his condition for allowing him to run his own treatment plan this is not good for the country Curtis writes and I guess this is reading tea leaves and Curtis his partner go to you and this is new since the Donald has an escape plan if he loses the election who continue to destroy our governmental institutions during his lame duck period then he will resign and pence will step in and try to give him the broadest pardon Barkan possibly ride bar with an resign with the same pardon. You know I I'm exhausted by all the possible scenarios. It's going to be a crazy few weeks what can I say you know I do think. The president has made it very clear that he's extremely unhappy with in particular Christopher a the f.b.i. Director are it's less clear although obviously he seems to me a furious that that there are going to be charges before the election that are brought by the Justice Department if we can rely on that who knows I would say when Trump signals this kind of displeasure with his officials it is certainly worth taking him seriously you know the very day after the $2800.00 midterm elections what did he do he fired Jeff Sessions and I do believe that were he to win reelection certainly Christopher a is very likely to be out at the f.b.i. There could be an even more wholesale. Housecleaning Well this is also fair to say that one of the reasons the president wants so desperately in today's society to hold on to the offices he knows that if he's replaced by Joe Biden he will be prosecuted Well it is interesting that Biden has made clear he wouldn't stand in the way of that you know which which would be a break of course but the courts over in New York where you are necessarily going to follow that well that's exactly right and you know that that would be a sharp break from tradition you know look at Richard Nixon and his pardon by Gerry Ford. Preemptively was very significant probably in Ford's defeat but also I think most historians have come around to the view whatever their political views if that was the right thing but you know Trump is a very different character and the pile up of disclosures about his finances seems to be escalating and there's still enormous and significant troubling conflicts of interest we don't know anything about the New York Times is continuing to publish its revelations just posted another article today on what they found in the taxes closures that we the American public have still never seen and here's our No no no thank you for waiting you're on the air with us welcome. Yeah Michael thanks for taking my call but so more of the kind of thing but assuming the Democrats win big in this election and take the Senate and the president I want to ask what are the options for Republican boy or given bad behavior since they've been running on this platform. Of why are you going. They've done so very successfully Up until now but with changing demographics also is there a path for redemption for a Republican. Budget for the area of a fight on the shelf like thank you thank you for this is and was we want to reflect on the future of the g.o.p. Particularly since we were talking about how different it was or is from James Baker if you. Well that's that's an interesting question I would say 1st of all we don't know how this ends and I do think that that will help to shape the story obviously a decisive repudiation of President Trump and Republicans in this fall's elections would would a fact I think what kind of lessons the Republicans take away from it but clearly look at the polls more than 40 percent of the American public appears to have stuck with Donald Trump through all of this and is likely to do so even in the election remember that would be historic landside you know if the polls today were accurate you know with 41 percent approval rating fat translating the election it would on the one hand be a historic landslide defeat of but on the other hand it would mean that more than 40 percent of the American public still stuck with him and those people are going to go away and in that sense Trump is outlives Trump you know you will certainly see some Republicans especially here in Washington refuted ings Trumper saying they never really liked him or they just held their nose and went along with him after all but I think that. Full reckoning is is going to be very hard in the whole rise politics that we have I really do and you know his unique character may disappear from the scene whether it will disappear whether it's now or 4 years from now but the substantive embrace not only of research of nationalist populism but the shrinking of the Republican base you are. Hard work Ashleigh. Are while going to have to leave it there because we're coming up on a break and we're going to be shifting here's what I want to thank both of you for being with us and remind listeners that Susan Glasser Peter Baker have a new book out it's called the man who ran Washington The Life and Times of James a Baker the 3rd appreciate both of you and thank you for being with us this morning . Rather thank you so much another segment for him coming up we're going to look at some police measures or measures to at least. Police reform locally and throughout Northern California states and that's up ahead a Michael Krasny. Coming up in our 2nd hour this morning with Mina Kim this November California will vote on Proposition $22.00 which would allow the liberal to classify drivers as independent contractors instead of as employees supporters say the initiative is needed for workers in today's economy while opponents say it allows companies to exploit workers and we'll look at both sides to listen to. On our program. Find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter we're at k.q.e.d. . Welcome back to the forum I'm Michael Krasny police killings of black people have sparked nationwide calls this year for more independent oversight of police departments in the Bay area alone at least 5 valid measures seek to strengthen or expand the power of police commissions independent investigations and other oversight in this segment we'll review what's being proposed joining us is q.e.d. Reporter Alex Emsley welcome Alex Hi there hi good to have you with us let's begin by talking about well the fact that we're not moving toward defunding police except maybe in one or 2 of these measures but more police reform and creating as I said fortifying civilian oversight boards and much of this of course was sparked by the catalyst of seeking racial justice in the ways of the or in the wake of police killings wonder what you think of these 5 measures what rises particularly to the top and what has been getting deservedly the most attention or should have the most attention Well it's interesting you know defending police and whether a particular measure in Sonoma County would or would not do that is is part of the controversy around one of these measures that would strengthen independent civilian oversight. Sonoma County measure p. Would change the powers of the independent office of one Foresman review and outreach that office was created in the years following the 2013 killing of 13 year old and you Lopez but measure p supporters say that it was underfunded and relied on the voluntary cooperation of the sheriff to allow for access and really meaningful oversight there is an important and extremely concerning case that has just sort of stalled in Sonoma County and is now with the Sonoma County district attorney and that is that last November former deputy Charles Blount was caught on body camera video violently slamming the head of a man into a car door frame that man's name was David Glenn Ward who died after this alter cation. Charles Blount also attempted to put warden in a neck hold through the driver side window of Ward's car forgive me I was a bit worried was indeed disabled was Yes yes he had some some medical issues and there was a struggle there was a struggle there was also a car chase that sort of preceded this stop but there was a struggle between particularly Blount and David Ward as he's trying to pole ward out of the driver's side window of his car now I've spent the past decade investigating police use of force cases and I have to say that this case in the video from this case is the most disturbing that I've ever seen I don't recommend that people watch this video the sheriff did make it public in December of last year about a month after the incident as he simultaneously said he was moving to fire Charles Blount I think it's important for people to know what this video shows though and what happened next but retired before he was officially fired or disciplined he's presumably collecting a pension and this criminal investigation took several months to be conducted in completed by the center as a police department the public hasn't seen any of their findings they have presented those to the D.A.'s office which is now not made a charging decision for 4 months compare that to how quickly we've seen criminal charges in other cases around and around the country you mention the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis the charges were filed initial charges were filed in that case 4 days after George wants death but in Sonoma County the d.a. Has waited for several months. What's more Charles Blount had a history of misusing neck holds carotid holds chokeholds. His conduct could and should have been addressed if there was adequate accountability for deputies That's according to supporters of measure p. Jerry 3 is the founding director of this oversight office called I Alero for short he retired in 2900 whether more robust let wrote has the ability any authority to look more closely into these issues and have direct access into their personnel system the director can look through these matters so if something comes up with a deputy should be able to go back to all the other cases that that deputy was that have been in and investigate it and also go back to look at all of this uses of force to see what's going on with this deputy and it's this someone needs to be flagged for greater attention and if you're able to do that you can bring that attention to that deputy and prevent future deaths of others. Now. 3 pts says that the sheriff has a contentious relationship with I aware as soon as the office started being critical the sheriff and the deputies Union oppose this measure and they're arguing that it would defund the sheriff supporters of measure p. Say that that's misleading what's true what the ballot measure actually says is that it would tie the independent oversight offices budget to the sheriff's department and say that it has to be one percent of the overall sheriff's budget but that funding does now and continues to come from the general fund in no way directly affects the sheriff's budget. This is Connect or does it connect to what's going on in Oakland with the firing of and Kirkpatrick which also became and still is a major issue with respect to the police commission there I think it's similar in that this involves independent over. Bodies and sort of either exercising their strength or seeking to have more authority in order to to exercise it right Oakland measure its ass one touches on several aspects of oversight of the Oakland Police Department including powers of the police commission and would create a new and separate from the police department Office of the inspector general that office of the inspector general for people who have watched. O.b.d. For a long time would know that there is a lot of complicated issues around. Internal Investigations in the Oakland Police Department and federal court oversight that's been going on for well over a decade of the Oakland Police Department and this inspector general would help and report to the police commission auditing of those issues. It changes timelines for how quickly police misconduct cases should be sort of finally adjudicated by an investigating agency and makes the sort of the determination of discipline in those cases when they're serious cases that are also a political. They can be released to the public under new transparency loss it makes that timing much quicker these decisions have to be made faster. And it would allow the police commission to hire independent attorneys I think that gets into some of this idea that there are parts of Oakland government that are in disagreement over these issues and you saw that play out with the police commission moving with the ventral support of the mayor to fire former police chief anchor Patrick related in part to her position on compliance with this federal court oversight so I think all these things yes they're complicated and they're interrelated but what measure s. One would do is generally strengthen the independent oversight civilian oversight of the police department through these couple of different mechanisms and higher. It's a lawyer separate from the city attorney's offices is a big deal when you think about it in the huge picture that we're talking about and we're talking about a number of police reform ballot measures was q.b. Reporter Alex Emsley and if you have questions about and it is reform measures or some thoughts about them you can give us a call I invite you to do that or toll free number is available to you it's 866-733-6786 I'll repeat that for your calls join us now at 866-733-6786 you can also of course get in touch with us on Twitter and Facebook if you have questions or comments we're at k.q.e.d. Form or e-mail any questions you may have to form at k.q.e.d. Dot org Can we talk about d.n.a. In San Francisco Alex Oh absolutely so so these are these are different measures involving different law enforcement agencies but centered in San Francisco so he deals with the sheriff's department. It's interesting San Francisco has what's known in sort of civilian oversight circles I guess as one of the oldest and one of the sort of the strongest. Independent oversight police commissions for the San Francisco police departments you know any anywhere around anywhere in the state but the sheriff's department which as you know also employs peace officers the sheriff's deputies. Doesn't have any sort of similar oversight system and this measure just somewhat overgeneralized in a way would would would change that would create a similar type system for the sheriff's department. We I know that the sheriff opposes at least a part of this measure. Saying that the. Independent Investigation wing of the police commission really is how I think of it the department of police accountability is already conducting independent investigations and so that this would be redundant and expensive and create additional headache the other parts role that these new offices. Oversight Board and office of inspector general would do if San Francisco proxy passes is an auditing and a and a policy recommendation function which the current chair does support. Interestingly sort of connected to these other measures around the Bay Area we're seeing an increase in the independent oversight bodies explicitly saying that they have subpoena power and that would be true. If proposition d. In San Francisco passed as well that this independent oversight would have the power to subpoena records to force the production of witnesses. And now kind of shifting gears somewhat quickly here to San Francisco proposition easy this has to do with a minimum staff. Thing number 4 full duty sworn police officers in the s.f. P.d. That sounds like a mad mouthful but all of those terms kind of mean very specific things it goes back to the 1990 s. And this somewhat cryptic I have never myself pin down exactly the origin of the number of 9971 for as you go into the office fold duty officers and that the city would be in violation of its own charter if that if they were employing fewer of those officers at any time I had that's an enigmatic to me to where they come up with that number Well you know I haven't fact checked it about yet and there's a rumor that I've heard that it was a number that was randomly written on the back of a bar napkin but I don't know there may be a much more sort of thought out in legitimate reason for it I don't know but at this time and what proponents of this measure say is that it's in our it's become arbitrary whether it had a. Real You know a legitimate sort of reason for that number in the past it's no longer true and they want to tie they want to eliminate that sort of mandate and just say the police department will you know provide staffing analysis staffing reports which they do a lot anyway trying to see if the city is in compliance with this and whether there should be more than 1971 officers buying the takeaway is this would allow city leaders including the mayor and the police chief and supervisors and police commission and others too. Employ fewer full do you officers which they can't do now and I think it fits in with some of the reforms that the mayor and the police chief have have started to push forward after the death of George Floyd and after uprisings around the country to divert responses to mentor mental health and some other types of calls away from the police department so this is this is I think this measure is part of that effort the Police Officers Association in San Francisco certainly opposes this measure says that the city has not consistently met that minimum mandate and that the police department is understaffed and more police officers are needed and we should mention as far as the sheriff Paul me a motive as opposed to that you say something quickly. About the Berkeley measure because I found that kind of fascinating in many respects in the sense that it's going to also establish a new 9 member independent police accountability board with with greater authority it would actually lower the standard of proof on police misconduct Yeah yeah I noticed that too and adding to this potential confusion around this is that Berkeley has has an existing police review commission that is also you know been around for quite some time but it is one that doesn't have the same kind of powers as some of these stronger I guess models. Like like the San Francisco model so yeah sort of my broad strokes read of this is this moves Berkeley from that weaker review commission model over the course of a couple years I also found it was interesting that this. This new police accountability board contemplated here 99 member board. With some direct power subpoena power auditing power. Wouldn't be in place or needs to be in place by. Early 2022 in the interim the Police Review Commission would continue to sort of function and create a transition should Berkeley measure I have to pass. Well that means increase staffing which means more cost what about the other measures are going to cost with those covered so yes I think I mean yes there is there is costs are we jumping back to Sonoma measure p. I mean obviously the a lot of the sort of very contentious political debate around that is around an increase of funding to the independent oversight office. It has been now again the supporters say it was always significantly underfunded from what it was initially conceived to be and for the duties that it had this measure while increasing those authorities and duties would also increase it depends on the ballot measure using an older budget estimates that it would triple this offices funding into more than you know close to $2000000.00. A more recent budget would say that basically that it would be an increase of half a $1000000.00 regardless the contention comes with that tie in to basically base it off of what the sheriff's the sheriff's overall budget is and I should say that that is likely a portion of this measure that will be challenged with litigation should it pass all sort of all parties are expecting litigation over Sonoma County and county measure p. Should it pass and it would likely be challenging this idea of a mandated minimum funding for the civilian oversight body now thanks to you Alex we've done a lot of I think at helping listeners understand in our election coverage these measures and we've covered the North Bay and the space and asked the measures actually and San Francisco but with very little time left I want to if you could say something about San Jose in Santa Clara because they've got a measure gene which would expand. Police auditor's oversight and review officers involved in shootings and use of force incidents that would result presumably in great bodily injury Yeah this looks to me like similar to a change that San Francisco made a few years ago that people may remember. Prior to that change the civilian investigation wing couldn't initiate an investigation if there was an officer if there's a police killing or shooting or any other kind of very public and very concerning type of case unless they received a complaint so it is San Jose's measure g. Is sort of allowing the independent police officer auditor there to sort of proactively initiate investigations in those kinds of serious cases and again giving more power more automatic access to records and evidence and sort of internal and largely secret records of the police department as these investigations are being conducted that is you know there's controversy in San Jose as well around the role of the Independent Police auditor and previous you know more proactive directors of that office trying to proactively. Investigator at least be involved in investigations or have opinions of investigations of police shootings Well it's again thank you for all the light you've shed and now it's up to the voters appreciate very much for being with us this morning on form Thank you thank you Michael. And we will actually have to say goodbye to you and hopefully you have a good week and I just want to remind you that we'll be preempted next week for at least a couple of days probably the 1st 4 week days because of the hearings the confirmation hearings having to do with the Supreme Court but we're with you generally Monday through Friday 9 to 11 another hour form of ahead with. Nina Kim and I thank you for being a part of this 1st hour forum and remind you that form is produced by Judy Campbell Tina Laberge Arianna Prell Blanca Torres and Susan Britton senior editor is Dan's all in our engineers any bringer intern Jenison wife's executive editor Ethan Tobin Lindsay and our chief content officer is Holly Kernan thank you again for being with us and for all of us here at k.q.e.d. Public Radio take care of yourselves and take care of those you care about and take your of each other and stay safe Michael Krasny. Funds for the production of forum are provided by the members of k.q.e.d. Public Radio and the Germana Coast Foundation and the generosity foundation before the 2nd hour reform we're going to check the roadways Joe McConnell is here we're off to Richmond where there's a slowdown on 80 westbound from San public Amro down towards Carlson because of an earlier crash that was out there for most of the hour most of the last hour the traffic is just cleared the traffic is still backed up though it's also pretty slow in San public image itself in the arena side especially around Bear Creek Road no reason given my piece of road work but no crashes reported there everything else looked looks pretty good no bay bridge back up at all Joe McConnell for key committee thanks Joe and traffic support comes from Lucky and lucky California support for k.q.e.d. Comes from Bay Hill High School where innovative teachers and power students with learning differences to achieve their full potential in high school college and beyond located in Berkeley learn more at Bay Hill h s dot org You're listening d.f.m. San Francisco and to k.q.e.d. Iowa family or Thilan Sacramento online it k.q.e.d. Dot org It's 10 o'clock. I mean. Other good companies want to help California. Contractors as employees. Position 22 offers a better way to address the needs. And they throw in a record $185000000.00. But say the companies abusing their. Industries will hear from both sides after this news. Live from n.p.r. News I'm Lakshmi saying millions of out of work Americans are waiting for a new infusion of federal coronavirus relief but so far there's been no breakthrough between the White House and congressional Democrats and hope of getting the g.o.p. Led Senate act on a new package soon is dwindling N.P.R.'s Claudio Sallis reports Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he does not think his chamber should act on further relief until after the election McConnell said the outlook for new aid is murky and it's a result of politics taking over with Election Day around the corner here's McConnell talking to reporters in Kentucky I'd like to see is rise above the head like we did back in March and April but I think that's unlikely not actually wage McConnell said if there is no relief in the future there is widespread agreement it should address airline a President Trump stop talks earlier this week and then raise the possibility of a standalone bill addressing the airlines however both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and McConnell agree that it's unlikely at this time clouding the how this n.p.r. News Washington the high stakes standoff over coronavirus relief is playing out as the House moves forward with a bill that would give Congress power to remove a president from office if he or she is deemed physically or mentally unfit House Speaker Nancy Pelosi raise concerns about President Trump's ability to make sound decisions while he's been taking experimental drugs to treat covert 19 N.P.R.'s Winsor Johnson reports Palosi notes whatever changes made won't affect the sitting president Speaker Pelosi says the commission would allow Congress to oust a sitting president by using the 25th Amendment the announcement comes a day after Palosi accused President Trump of being in an altered state for his coronavirus treatment and announcing the legislation Palosi said it had nothing to do with trumpet but to give some comfort to people on the stability of the government the bill is all but certain to fail in the Republican controlled Senate N.P.R.'s. Winsor Johnson reporting Hurricane Delta is headed for the Louisiana coast N.P.R.'s Rebecca her she reports a major storm has rapidly intensified something that is more likely to happen as the Earth gets hotter hurricane Delta is quickly gaining strength as it moves over the Gulf of Mexico the water in the Gulf is hot more than 80 degrees Fahrenheit in some places the hot water is like a battery for the storm powering it up with energy and moisture Delta is likely to affect some of the same areas that were hit by hurricane Laura just 6 weeks ago Laura also intensified rapidly over abnormally warm water climate scientists have long warned that a hotter earth would mean wetter more powerful hurricanes the 2020 hurricane season is a textbook example of what that looks like hurricane Delta will be the 10th named storm to hit the u.s. This year Rebecca Hirsch or n.p.r. News the iconic New York Yankees pitcher Whitey Ford has died he was 91 years old this is n.p.r. Live from k.q.e.d. News I'm Brian Watt State Senator Scott Wiener says he plans to introduce legislation to legalize safe injection sites in Oakland and San Francisco k.q.e.d. Sparling explains that safe injection sites people who use drugs can count on clean needles and access to medical professionals but right now the sites aren't allowed in California San Francisco mayor London breed says it's past time for that to change when that one day comes when they say I need help that person then that safe injection site says I got to that's what this is about I got through and we're going to help you because what we're doing right now is not working this is not the 1st time the California legislature has voted on legalizing safe injection sites a similar law passed in 28000 but then Governor Jerry Brown vetoed it. Bay Area leaders and health officials support the legislation and say the need is even greater during the pandemic when both overdoses and substance use are on the rise I mean a spiralling k.q.e.d. News baseball season is over for the a's the Astros beat Oakland 11 to 6 taking the American League Division Series knocking the A's out of the playoffs a center fielder Lorianne 0 was once a Houston minor leaguer and had some tough encounters with the Astros this year he said this loss hurts to Buffy going you know what I hopefully. It doesn't happen next year or you get out Ok but head up good work can dream about motion for war and when I was serious the A's have made it to the playoffs 11 times in the past 2 decades I'm Brian Watt k.q.e.d. News support comes from SUV as Fertility Center doctors reveals his personal expertise has helped build families over 30 years ago i v f dot com. Support for n.p.r. Comes from knew him a personalized weight loss program based in psychology for helping people change their habits and conquer their goals learn more and him an o.m. Dot com and battle listeners of k.q.e.d. Well we'll start off with it's a spare the air day in fact tomorrow as well today cloudy skies with Highsmith sixty's to low seventy's 73 the anticipated high for Walnut Creek in Napa 64 at the coast and Half Moon Bay 66 expected in San Francisco. This is forum I mean it came Proposition 22 is shaping up to be the most contentious and expensive measure on the November ballot move or live to door dash and insta card have poured some 180 $5000000.00 into the proposal which would allow them to classify their workers as independent contractors with some benefits rather than as employees under state law but opponents say these workers are entitled to overtime and benefits like health care unpaid leave the outcome of Prop 22 is being watched closely by other states and joining me now to debate the measure are David Cruz president of the League of United Latin American Citizens Council Number 3288 part of the Yes on Prop 22 campaign thanks for joining us David Cruz Well thank you very kindly for having me appreciate it and also with us is Sherry Murphy lefse driver organizer with geek workers rising in part of the no on Prop 22 campaign thanks for joining us Sherry Murphy so happy to be here and Lauren Hepler economy reporter for cow matters is also with us hi lauren Hafler I may or Thanks for having me on thanks for being on and I'll start with you so Proposition 22 as I said would allow good workers big companies including who are lifted Jordache others to classify their workers as contractors with certain benefits what are these benefits Exactly yes so this should sound very familiar to lot of people in California this is a conversation that was top of mind at last year's 85 and at issue is whether good worker should be as is written into California law now if they should be guaranteed things like minimum wage 150 percent overtime pay expenses reimbursed the $0.07 per mile health care and family leave Prop 22 proposes an entirely different structure that they say is more fitting for these types of on demand jobs and they would pay 120 percent of minimum wage and are full reimbursements for things like health care but it would all be tied to. What they call in Gauge time which is when a driver actually has a passenger or an order in the car and most studies from both business and labor groups show that about one 3rd of drivers time is spent waiting and not there it moves active writes this What justification Have you heard from a bird left about that So on the Engage time issue they say that it's a matter of control they don't have visibility into what exactly drivers are doing while they're waiting so they'll suggest that maybe they're driving for another app or maybe they're on a break grabbing some food and drivers I talk to often say that's not the case a lot of times they're circling like maybe looking to pick up a ride in an area and they say it's just kind of a cost of doing business and they feel that they should be compensated for that so that's a definite point of contention Well you know Hooper see New York Times op ed he said that what you're just describing with these additional benefits not exactly of course what you would get as an employee is so-called 3rd Way sort of between the original contractor model and the state's law the 5 person you just remind us when he be 5 is what it requires Yes $85.00 would consider workers to be employees like in other industries in California this obviously also affected freelancers and other lines of work as well and what it requires again minimum wage which in California varies from 13 to a little over $16.00 an hour depending what city you're in as well as some of those benefits like health care paid family leave workers compensation and unemployment benefits obviously a big one right now and the question here is really if there should be a baseline for good workers if they should be entitled to these types of things or as a company say should you give individual drivers what they would like to be considered contractors an opportunity to go out there and try to earn more money per hour based on kind of their own savvy ness figuring out the most lucrative routes so. Yes In a nutshell that you would vote no on this if you think these workers should be treated as employees as e.b. 5 says with employee benefits and you vote yes on 22 if you want to lead good companies classify these workers as contractors with some additional benefits there's this other part of Proposition $22.00 that I'd love to talk a little bit more about and that is that it would make it extremely hard to amend Can you talk about that provision Yes it's an interesting provision so it requires a 7 eighth's supermajority what are political reporter calls a super super super majority and that's an unusually high bar to amend a ballot measure so that means that if lawmakers wanted to go back later and say hey we actually think kind of the pay structure in Prop $22.00 should be amended it would require really across the board disagreement and the state legislature which even and blue California is not easy to accomplish a lot of folks say that would be practically pretty much politically impossible now the good companies do say that they don't have to leave any room at all to amend So they're saying they are leaving some flexibility but the one thing I think is interesting here is that we hear the tech industry talk a lot about iteration and sort of improving things as you go in this measure appears to be. You just one last question before we go to the yes and no sides on this as I mentioned this is being watched closely by other states what are the broader implications of Proposition 22 so this is really kind of litigating the future of work how we think that this new class of tech power jobs should be regulated it's an issue that's already come up in other states places like New York City and Seattle are also implementing driver minimum wage right now and we're seeing all kinds of dueling research on what that's ultimately going to mean for driver pay obviously the companies themselves have threatened to pull out of unfavorable markets if they don't like the laws that are passed so this could have big implications for both the workers themselves and consumers who have. I'm used to having the steep rise of a well known hapless kind of reporter for count matters David Cruz with the Yes on Prop 22 campaign tell us why you're advocating passage of this proposition Well thank you I appreciate the Lawrence last point this model has been created by the public I mean the platform company certainly they refined it but you the consumer you're making these companies successful just a few feet from where I'm seated right I've got boxes just got delivered from a store that we were did some food from yesterday because of coke at 19 you know I need to be careful my neighbors were in their seventy's I haven't gone out in weeks these services are being. They're growing because of the high demand the public has for and it is true that the public is the one that's using the services and they don't I don't think that they see this like they're exploiting men and women I certainly don't see myself that way when I take an over or a lift I try to compensate them in addition to the feet whatever they charge I try to give more and I don't see that in a condescending way I respect what they do to me and the reason why as a community activist I believe in this is because the workers want to control their schedule they want to control where they work how they work and there is a floor that is guaranteed under Prop $22.00 bet is in addition to minimum wage a 120 percent over minimum wage they do have benefits you protections things that's going to make them better at managing their tying their business and the way that they work so I think that this is a step forward for California and I realize that in the Bay Area where most of your listenership may be centered there could be an anomaly there because it is a very concentrated area but Prop $22.00 is a statewide measure that's going to bring uniformity and it's going to codified into law it's going to be something that will apply from one end of the state to the other which is why I think it's important that's why I support. All right well let me go to Sherry Murphy with good workers rising the No on Prop 22 campaign tell us why you are against this proposition I thank you for having me again I'd just like to 1st start of by saying then I disagree with David. Crystal action about this law was created for the people we simply know this and it's a valid measure that was purchased by little grandeur dash in written by not a multimillion dollar corporations to deny workers a basic wage in labor it create a special exemption for themselves and they're asking California California voters to be complicit in that after all is to say not. We what I know about this law is. For the laws. Here in the state of California is nothing it will take nothing away from the likes of. 1000000000 dollar corporations or to provide workers of ability in benefits like unemployment insurance and sick when. There's nothing in the law that is taking away the drivers less about what we're talking about is a problem. That will create the workers that will have no sickly no unemployment insurance no remedies in the waste for generations to come and that's why it's a big. Well let me invite our listeners to join the conversation you've heard yes and no put out sort of their main reasons for why they support or oppose Proposition 22 an explanation of what it will do how are you planning to vote or maybe you already have Tell us what you decided or what are your questions about this proposition as you're trying to decide the number 866-733-6786 again 866-733-6786 You can also reach us on Twitter or Facebook at k.q.e.d. Forum or e-mail us at Forum at k.q.e.d. Dot org. And this is what Scott writes If this measure passes I'm concerned that other employers might start classifying workers as independent contractors when they're really not what's to stop the restaurant industry for instance from classifying servers as independent contractors and screwing them out of minimum wage sick time etc David Cruz What's your response to Scott about these broader concerns that for example you know once the contractor model came about a lot of companies took this on as a cost savings measure maybe even if their workers were not necessarily true contractors what's to say that this 3rd way that the proposition is proposing won't also be used in instances incorrectly. Well I do think that there are laws in place that would guard against abuse of this kind of a provision whether it be $85.00 or $22.00 where I stand on a on yes on $22.00 is that it's going to insure the greatest number of people keeping work that permits them to earn as much as they possibly can you know what I look at this thing initially and this is a closest I've ever gotten involved with something as significant as this I decided that I wanted to support it because it doesn't put a cap on how much the worker can earn as opposed to thinking of minimum wage I want to know 'd what can we do to improve their plight since they are primarily from communities of color and how can we give them that opportunity to work as much as they can or wish and earn as much as they can for their families and look this issue of plucks ability is a very important. This is with us ability is something that we're definitely going to dig into after the break again we're talking about Proposition 22 with you our listeners with the yes and no sides and with reporter Lauren haploid from town matters stay with us from our I mean again you're listening to farm. Support for k.q.e.d. Comes from a generous gift from young sram and her him Maria and he sram founders of the minute he's from Museum of Art at u.c. Davis who believes that all people to serve access to education and culture to enrich a lifetime of exploration and learning and Ginger a mental health employee benefit offering on to mancipation. Short in seconds through live texts with a coach and video sessions with a therapist or psychiatrist within hours Ginger dot io slash start now. From an exciting it's Friday our continuing coverage of the increasing spread of covert one theme plus the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for crisper you can think about it almost like a pair of scissors or d.n.a. In the cell and in physics for black holes the situation that we now call a black hole in those days they didn't even have a word for it plus the book club that's on the next Science Friday from the studio Science Friday coming up at 11 o'clock and you're listening to far on my Nina cam Proposition 22 would classify drivers for app nice turbo says like a lift. In sticker as independent contractors but guarantees some benefits we're talking about it with Sherry Murphy lift driver organizer with the workers rising and part of the no on Prop $22.00 campaign David Cruz president of the League of United Latin American Citizens Council yes on Prop 22 Lauren Hepler is with us economy reporter for Cal matters and of course you our listeners 86673367868667336786 and you can reach us at k.q.e.d. Forum on Twitter or Facebook e-mail us at Forum at k.q.e.d. Dot org Let me go straight to your calls Kevin Santa Clara join us Hi Kevin. I don't. Want to make a comment the list improver door day girl in compliance with the current law on the books they weren't willing to come to the table with the drivers before the law was placed on the books this is a half hearted effort to throw a few businesses. After the sec they're in compliance the business is as it should be providing currently right now Kevin being the $102.00 Yes thanks for reminding us of that I mean Lauren happened a century refused to comply right and were sued as a result of it can you tell us where the grounds yes the caller's absolutely right There are lawsuits flying over a company's refusal to comply with $0.85 it was signed into law in January of this year and basically what happened is about 2 months back now a judge issued an injunction and said that the companies have to start paying compensating their drivers and providing these benefits as employees as the 5. And that was when a lot of people may have heard it or enlist Britain to pull out of California now that measure was paid and we're kind of in a limbo period right now where. We're going to go back to the courts and see what they say and in the meantime obviously if you've ever used any of the services you've probably gotten e-mails or seen commercials on line with the 185000000 dollars that big companies are putting into this campaign to say hey if you want to keep the services available you should vote yes on Prop 22 So they're really asking the voters help for getting around some of these issues that have come up with the courts and the legislature in Sacramento. Well let me go to Mike in Oakland Hi must join us Hey Hey How are you not so I just want to say for the record that I'm. Generally pro-union pro co-op and all that but about Prop 22 I'm not 100 percent decided because I am a delivery driver right now and I have been a left driver in the past. And although there are problems especially with the right sharing companies I've noticed that it's not as cut and dried as it used to be used to be like the company would only take 20 percent and you get the rest and now it's kind of it's kind of shady it's a little shady here and I think that needs to happen there but it when it comes to a business. Going from private contractor to you know employees the b. 2 s. There are costs are going to go up exponentially you know they're going to pay like workers comp you have to pay administration they're going to have to pay the more taxes and whatever and sure maybe they should pay more in some ways for some things . But I feel like it's going to it's going to change the business model so much that it's not going to be worth it for the drivers and it's not going to be worth it for the customers I don't think or want to you know want to pay the increase and I don't think the drivers are going to want to you know only drive for $13.00 an hour then you get your taxes taken out and everything else and then you know it's it's it's a hustle you know it's a good economy is a hustle you get to like sometimes you make 40 bucks an hour sometimes you make 10 bucks an hour and you know it's. For it I ultimately I'd like to see it be you could have a choice you can either be a private contractor or you can be an employee or maybe if you work over a certain amount of hours you're automatically classified as an employee or something like that but that's not how our laws work so well my thank you for sharing that and and Sherry Murphy I mean his point about potential costs increasing significantly it does make it hard to to see how they would be able to offer the kind of flexibility of drivers that they're offering now in that event. Oh I just want to speak to what the caller to briefly mention as relates to whether or not to be the bad as an independent contractor or as an employee I'm going to say this that for years we're going to look at had a history of. Exploiting workers actually. Attacking critics who happen to be women of color. And so there is this. Issue is about misclassification it started. Last year 6 weeks after. Decided that they were wanting to continuously to break the law by creating Proposition 20 the way that the law says now if we are employing. According to the dynamics. $2800.00 what they did was essentially address the minimum wage that we're fighting now under Proposition $22.00. Whether or not we employees who are in the contract what 20 what 852-9000 was clarify the reach in effect. By making sure that we address the state disability unemployment insurance. And its compensation there is nothing in the law they let me be clear there is nothing in the law that would take away the flexibility away for drivers $1000000000.00 corporations can of or to provide workers flexibility and the like import you know unemployment insurance you were. There just refusing to well what you're saying is underscored by this listener who tweets can you ask the yes side whether their position is that they're legally barred from offering employee driver's under 85 flexible schedules because nothing whatsoever in current law in 85 or elsewhere in California law bars them a prime offering fully flexible schedules in any way did. You know that argument about what's an a.b. 5 what isn't the fact is it isn't defined and $22.00 would define it that there would be protections for drivers that would now be cut of 5 they would become part of law the color previously brought up a very good point which is the marketplace defines this model there is and forgive me for the for the unintended pun there is no free right here these cause will change it will be a different model if we go to employees and what I would like to ask my friend Sherry is this what guarantee is there as to how many drivers are going to keep their jobs look I am about keeping as many people employed as possible not on sweat wages but to let them decide for themselves how to maximize their time the concern that I have and the reason I am here is because my my looking at what the esteemed Assembly Member Lorena Gonzales calls the golden ticket that some will get what happens to the rest of the drivers who don't get hired by the companies there is no guarantee that the market will accept them and that we're going to be willing to pay a higher price for the services be a delivery or rights. To more and less than companies like that could provide flexibility if they wanted too. Well I think what movies and look a little like bicultural we're moving towards those kinds of conversations with these companies but I don't see them as an adversarial describing them as being an enemy of the people or of the community I I just all she business that where she get that we have to be able to sit out a table and negotiate these things and I think we have the market wish do have that kind of power to do their. Own interest and sure enough you go right ahead so I want to say that you know everyone wants a job debts treated with dignity and respect and here and here is why we're here because of Proposition 22 once the get the labor in wage protections and benefits we have laws in place we had done a mix isn't it was who created in $20085.00 that was created that was passed earlier this year the bottom line is that lift an ogre not want to alert in rules like everyone else when I know what it's like to be a good worker that works for an exploitive application company and company such as these guys I know what it's like to have lip service is appoint a black man is completely unharmed where it's had the hind billboards in big checks created by well paid publication public relations the absence of any real promise of change in the notice where you listen to simply do not follow the advice of Proposition $22.00 created by multimillion dollar campaigns they are shirking their responsibilities and they're trying to put it once and it's unfair and that's why it's critical we don't know this is very murky this listener tweets I lost my job due to the pandemic having a nap and I can just turn on and make money has literally kept a roof over my head and food in my stomach while I look for another job I think Prop 22 boils down to one simple issue. To me and that is flexibility this person would like yes on Prop 22 I do want to ask you Sherry just quickly you know the companies and others are saying that. You know turning all contractors are drivers especially these companies into employees could increase costs what some 20 or 30 percent and I do just want you to say whether or not you think that would affect their ability to provide the flexibility that you're saying they can. What will it affect is the ability for workers to not have. The ability to have good quality jobs everybody wants a job. But do we want a really good quality because as I tried to say I know what it's like to work long hours with no guaranteed wage no we're in the rest room and you know overturned I don't know what it's like to have the looming threat of an accident with no coverage or id at the Basin based upon discrimination or retaliation with no protections and no remedies and I come from a learn of a tradition racial. And to see it one time and I know what it's like to be struggling in the middle of a pandemic for 3 months because my employer refused to put in unemployment insurance like their moral business. This if we were forced to but doubles choice well up and then McCain we will face of the season had the. Ability to kill us and secure a bill enlisting the were nowhere to be found and we took it to get secure secure mess in hand sanitizers in pain there was a lack of transparency. In Again Lincoln knew where to meet and the bottom line is this is that this ballot measure is nothing more then a profit a profit. It's on the backs of workers election and that's why we should go cherry Murphy a left driver organizer with a group is rising no on Prop $22.00 David Cruz is with us president of the League of United Latin American Citizens Council and yes on Prop 22 more unhappier is with us economy reporter for count matters more and have our money in your reporting if you've been finding whether support were opposition to Proposition 22 it depends on what kind of driver you are whether you're somebody who uses it mostly for part time or to. Supplement other kind of work that you want to be able to do or if you're somebody who really relies on good work for the bulk of your income Yeah that's a great question and I would say I've talked to some folks who are really especially before the pen Demick were the hard core drivers that would maybe leave home in the Central Valley go work in San Francisco for 2 or 3 days at a time and just racking up as many hours as many rides as they could in some cases folks are telling me they were driving like 6070 hours a week and in those cases they really do say look I'm working more than a full time job it's outrageous that I'm not getting health care that I'm not going to go over time and these things that workers in other industries are guaranteed but I will say I've talked to folks on the other side who are I would add completely on affiliated with either campaign I talked to a gentleman Brian Oden down in San Jose this week who is an independent photographer and videographer and he says he's been working for instance are during the day usually making about $150.00 a day and a standard 8 hour shift and that gave him the income to then be able to go out in the evenings when black eyes matter protests were going on and film speeches and during the day and then I could go out and do kind of my my real passion and I really depended job at night so there are different vantage points there and the one driver I talked to and of summed it up in an interesting way his name is Ben Valdes you sound in Los Angeles and drives about 20 hours a week for a brand lift outside his day job at a community college and he said the thing that's frustrating is that it can be like going to Vegas he said on bad nights so learn as little as $3.00 an hour but on a good day you know you can hit it big and aren't $400.00 if you get folks that are taking long rides or that kind of thing and his case he said you know this to this stability is what I really want I don't want to be taking that risk every time I go out to work so that's kind of what the question is for a lot of folks well let me go next to caller Kathy in San Jose Hi Kathy Hi I want to know what the. Definition of good work crews like Hooters proposition apply to you that's a good question and also a question from some of our other commenters as well this listener writes I understand his proposition is to exempt driver based apps what about all the other apps handyman business babysitting dog walkers do these add platforms currently have to comply with the employment laws if they meet the thresholds David Cruz. Here's what I know Ed thank you for that I appreciate the balance of the conversation the word gig I mean and I think it's a play on words because yes well you know gigabyte and also gig as and you do this and you do that I mean I get that that's kind of a sign of our times where we're cobbling together different kinds of jobs to make ends meet and let me tell you it's true the pandemic has taken a big chunk out of the economy primarily for communities of color where we have seen an economic drop of 60 to 70 percent. To the question of be of the various categories of. Workers my son he's a videographer he shoots video and he's an on demand kind of an employee in that he works for himself he he makes his own taxes and those kinds of things but here's what I do know that happened with $85.00 there have been more than $100.00 exceptions already made to $85.00 it was not a perfect solution for everybody and I think it's going to continue to be the case that is the marketplace evolves we're going to continue to see changes and believe you me I'm not ignoring the comments about people who are having a very difficult time we're all seeing this kind of change but there is a vast variety of drivers and even the drivers people maybe in the Bay Area who have shorter rides they may not be making as much as people who are in some other areas where the rides in the drives are longer so there is a very broad landscape and I'd like to close with this what Prop 22 can do for the state of California is bringing uniformity from one end of the state to the other and there are protections there to guard against the kind of discrimination that this Murphy is describing I think maybe not have Yeah I mean does this go beyond I mean the major founders of this are move or less into card or das Post Mates which is also owned by Hoover right. So did how far does this go does it apply to these companies or much for their. Yes So this is a pretty narrowly defined bill the nonpartisan legislative analyst office clarifies that this is for app based drivers who work and delivery and ride sharing sectors so we are talking about sort of you know the household names that are supporting the campaign lift in start or death. But it's interesting because I've already heard a lot of folks saying you know what the stakes here could be really high for drivers in other sectors like you think about this year numbers of Amazon driver there's companies like ship that works with Target So all kinds of you know this is a growing sector with these kind of on demand at workers and a big question is going to be what happens here with some of the ones who are in these narrowly defined categories. Well again we're talking with Lauren have floor of cow matters Sherry Murphy have good workers rising with no on Prop 22 and David cruise of LULAC yes on Prop 22 what are your questions about the proposition maybe you've already decided how you'll vote you can tell us why 866-733-6786 you can tell us on Twitter or Facebook at k.q.e.d. Forum or email us at Forum a k.q.e.d. Dot org and then be given a couple of comments Steve writes I was so confused on how to vote on it in the end I followed the money for it and voted no John writes The Us ads offer no explanation of why people must be paid as independent contractors just a lot of reasons most people can identify like wanting to work flexible hours for extra money we'll hear from more of you our listeners after the break we're talking Proposition 22 Stay with us you're listening to forum. For more information on the state propositions on the November ballot go to k.q.e.d. Dot org slash voter guides that's k.q.e.d. Dot org slash voter guide on Monday the Senate Judiciary Committee starts hearings on President Trump's Supreme Court nominee Judge Amy Kone Barrett would fill the seat left vacant by the death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Monday for live n.p.r. Coverage of the hearings and for the latest updates on our programs and guests find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter k.q.e.d. Forum and I'm at n.p.r. . This is farm I mean Occam the outcome of Proposition $22.00 is being watched closely across the country with potentially broad implications for labor standards across industries and I'm going straight to you our listeners Ken tweets 85 captured a long list of independent contractors in a myriad of different roles including insurance agents attorneys real estate agents all have been granted exemptions why if it applies to one why not all is the granting of waivers a form of influence peddling Sherry Murphy what's your reaction to can. You know. It's a really good question and I think it connects with the last question where. Asking what is the good work and what I know in my world is. Selling since. The work force or after American people come and that's a good we're in there at close to 56 percent of them are immigrants so and that's why tens of thousands of Russian drivers are calling on Congress to vote no opposition 22. Percent of them work more than 30 hours and a significant amount of them can order or in Alex So as relates the future of what it is an era to me but now because as Warren mention it we fire 78 a majority to amend this law I can't get 12 people could agree on a pizza So imagine a 7th 8th of a bill that would create a vote to change Proposition 22 if it passes so you don't think for example that the legislature has been specifically resistant to helping our compromising with Hoover and there are companies like that. Ask me in another way I'll make sure that what I mean is I think what Ken is asking is you know if you give an exemption is if the legislature of 85 has given exemptions to all of these different industries right why aren't they giving an exemption to Hoover and left and companies at best companies like the ones that are represented here by Proposition 22 you know is there potentially the fact that that the legislature specifically resistant to these companies to bring left and that would be I wouldn't disagree with legislators for over 10 years of attempted to work. We've been talking about the dynamics decision this relation trying to work with them about whether or not we should be considered employees were independent contractors working with them with 85 This relates to whether or not we deserve basic labor in law protests. In the issue is whether or not let the grandeur Dashwood treat their workers with dignity or respect or where they purchase a law that will continue to expand the exploitation of workers in needs to be well Paul writes The crucial difference to me is that a contractor has hired to complete a specific job while an employee has an open ended relationship with the employer as long as the company sets the rates and assigns the rides to people waiting for something to do these are clearly employees Jeff in Berkeley joined us hi Jeff. Hi Thanks for taking my call let me stop missing a totally in the scene the anger and outrage you know with regards to. I'm a small business. I may have fully independent contractors a pay them a handsome hourly wage it will get to a lot of bucks an hour. They work on projects in a state of generally speaking and I'm curious you know whether this conversation go like really great or you know what what amount of compensation. It is. Interesting Lauren have her do you want to try to respond to Jeff I know you've done some work about compensation and how it is all over the map with Keith work yes I have and I mean to answer the question directly I'm not aware of any provisions of current state law that would say you know you can go back to classifying workers as independent contractors if they are at a certain hourly wage So that's again something that would likely have to be further legislated but on the coin about driver pay the studies really are all over the place and a lot of that is because the game companies themselves have declined to release comprehensive data on how much drivers are paid they've participated in some studies for places like New York and Seattle but we don't really have you know the real numbers for how much are drivers making day to day California so into that vacuum have studies like one that's backed by labor groups and u.c. Berkeley Labor Center found that with Prop $22.00 drivers can make as little as $564.00 an hour when you account for a cost of coroner ship and wait times on the flip side group at u.c. Riverside that's been commissioned by lifts and Jordache found that using much lower wait times and driver expenses drivers could be making 25 to 27 dollars an hour right in the middle the legislative analyst office again the government's nonpartisan agency said that most drivers make a living to $16.00 an hour after wait and if the wait times and expensive so there really is a huge range that with a well this is not right as a former left driver with over 9000 rides I oppose Prop 22 you're your pro 22 spokesperson speaks from a condition of privilege he's never tried to make ends meet on a good workers' pay and as a California citizen I am insulted by the 70 supermajority clause did because I'll give you a chance to respond since the sister called you out specifically. Like to ask you about the forces. An 8th supermajority clause is well if you could also explain right that was a. This is not an issue of our we rated truly an issue of control who's going to control the segment of the labor force in California that's really what this is about the gentleman who called and says he pays answer only for people who do specific projects I do the same thing and I get paid the same way I do a job I get paid for what I do but I go out and I find the next job if there's there's no employer employee relationship and a lot of whirls that that people are dealing with today the reason why the 7 eighth's to me is important and this is one of the things that caused me to support Yes on 22 is that no one asked me and no one asked the voters of California about 85 before they passed a date that that have been Sacramento because they do have what was referred to earlier as the super duper majority they have a supermajority we weren't asked Yes on $22.00 is our 1st shot at expressing our views on the future of work in California and I do believe that the 70 eight's should indicate to our Listers remake indicate it's up to you how you want to take it I won't court this is there's a lot at stake and we want to make sure that lawmakers do not ignore the wishes of the voters so yes it's important that people get out there and express themselves and I would urge them to consider what that control in the hands of the workers not politicians in our minds and ideas are moving certain Go right ahead are to jump on it because I'm going to cut our dream to college is the latest thing for low wage workers and people of color and well I know is is that Proposition 22 is supporting this summer playing great businessman president trying the California Republican Party police unions in law switching with the commerce even street and even transfer $2000000.00 to the California Republican Party to support this campaign which I mean that the close to $200000000.00 and who is opposing it. Labor. The United Commercial Workers the California Labor Federation president dental nominees come out here as in Joe Biden Senator Elizabeth Warren are against this ballot measure because they have a history of being who are basic workers and middle class folks so I'm I'm curious why this film. It's supposed to be the prize bill when I know that working with Cliff is about expectations which is why we had 85. Documents law those laws that lived in or have refused the public and instead have purchased their own labor law it's clear that we need to make sure that Proposition $22.00 does not pass we're up for fight up and down the ballot this November in Proposition 22 is a battle that we need to make sure that we learn how to play or how is the latest polling going what is it showing us so we've actually had a shift in this in this race. About a month ago that measure was trailing slightly and the most recent numbers from a group Berkley show that probably too is likely voters 39 to 36 percent but that leaves a huge number at least a quarter of voters undecided with you know less than a month to go until Election Day So I would expect to see lots more ads on the Nic writes I ran a delivery company with employees and independent contractors for 14 years in Seattle I saw the birth of the big companies that use the independent contractor model to keep the money in their pockets and the protections off the workers they chose a bad model and have broken laws to get where they are if they go under it is because they made bad choices Tyson writes in a company's business model relies on shirking labor and tax loss to be profitable it isn't a viable business as a small business owner I'd love to $1099.00 all my employees cost of goods would be cheaper for my clients I could pay my employees more and save $6.00 figures in workers comp payroll tax and other required benefits Lenny tweets left a nuber are not meant to be real or quality stable jobs if you want to full time job with benefits then you should seek out a full time job gig work is supposed to be quick and as needed Alan in Oakland thanks so much for waiting. Thank You can you hear me fine I can go right ahead excellent 1st of all Lauren Shirley thank you for your salient points I'm a driver with left with several 1000 rights of the past 3 years and I'm specifically voting no on Proposition 22 and I mean to tell you exactly why number one this term flexibility is nothing but mythology folks it's mythology flexibility it's not built into the ride share or gig share business you go when the surge and the demand of customers is there Ok I can have a job all day long and think I'm going to make money over midnight there's no demand that's being said to bring the left honestly do think they're above the law they've been breaking this law for years and they're trying to buy themselves their own laws to continue exploiting workers like me this almost $200000000.00 they're spending is also money that they got free by failing to pay in the tax rolls for our unemployment benefits for the past several years and this was confirmed by u.c. Berkeley study Well same to you. I think we hear you and and hear your passion let me go next to Emma in Los Angeles Hi Emma what would you like to say hey guys I'm not entirely sure how to vote for this issue but I am a person who has transitioned out of the big economy into a job that actually has a leaper union I don't take home a lot of money but salary but the amount of security I have is immeasurable I don't know that we fight hard enough for a livable situation only in these times and I think that also of course the gig economy with list is important. Maybe we should fight a little harder for what it's like to have a life and a job and kids in this day and age and then thanks for sharing that sort of along those lines call Parle writes If we had a good social safety net we wouldn't have to worry about all these different ways that companies exploit workers. Leslie writes I received a yes on $22.00 flyer yesterday boldly stating the vast majority of at base drivers say yes one claim I would like to hear more about from the guest is health care benefits starting at just 15 hours a week with this truly be implemented Lauren have our kind what are you on that the 50 hours a week how is that calculated it's a good point so you accrue a larger health care subsidy based on how much you're driving so yeah it starts at 15 hours a week and critics sort of labor groups say that the about you would be earning is really not enough to pay for your own health care whereas the current law and state law in $85.00 would provide you know sort of whole employer sponsored health care plan so that's the main difference there Ron hapless economy reporter for cow matters we also have Sherry Murphy with us no on Prop 22 and David cruise with us yes on Prop 22 and you are listeners you're listening to forum I mean a Kim and let me go to more calls Lisa in Sebastopol Hi Lisa. Thanks for taking what. They would very grateful for that program wasn't sure how it would. Be and a contract worked like. This but I definitely. Lisa I'm so sorry the line is cutting out if you could try to cause back let me see if I can go next to hope in San Francisco hi hope. Thank you so much for taking my call I am mostly here just to say get anyone who is listening to vote no on Prop 22 last insta car door dash Post Mates have spent more money on this self-serving proposition than any other proposition in California history little reminiscent of last year's Jools 21 team campaign baiting for the children measure. The largest survey of on demand workers in the country by u.c. Santa Cruz shows that for most at base right share drivers this isn't just a gig it's a full time job and most drivers worth over 35 hours a week and when you calculate true expenses including wear and tear on their cars mileage reimbursement paid and unpaid time a substantial chunk of this workforce is estimated to earn less than Stan Francisco's minimum wage in 20 percent of drivers 0 dollars after expenses and Prop $22.00 was what the company's rep off drivers with massive amounts of unpaid labor drivers would only be paid for time while they have a passenger in the car when they're making a delivery and they call the Engaged time they get nothing at all while they're driving to pick someone up waiting for ride which could be up to have their time so please please please everyone vote no on Prop 22. Thanks so much again for taking my call thank you hope for calling in John tweets the yes advocate points out that the a.v. Fat 85 has been amended several times already why can't the legislature simply address any changes to prop 6 to address David Cruz why not try to continue working with Sacramento on this Sacramento didn't work with us I mean that's what brought us to this location now hurt Sacramento sat down with many of us voters perhaps we would have fashioned something that's going to be more equitable wouldn't least sorry I couldn't hear the whole thing but. I wanted to hear her think you know. The driver and I appreciate Hope's passion there in San Francisco but eminently pointed out that the needs of people do vary and change and the flexibility here is very real I think it's going to be an ongoing attraction for drivers and please drivers are not one monolithic block I just want to keep the choice in their hands not in the hands of politicians that's it David crews head of LULAC yes on Prop 22 Sherry Murphy list driver no on Prop 22 Lauren Hepler economy reporter for Cal matters Thanks to all of you for joining us today. Thank you for having me thank you and thanks to the guitarist for producing that segment we now head into the weekend with another installment from our series the music getting you through 2020 and today we get. A recommendation from Bob the end of the innocence by Don Henley Bob writes to me the song is about taking responsibility for what happens in our society and letting go of a more childish idea that we can leave that responsibility to others or think that because things worked a certain way in the past that it should always be fine for everyone in the future . Thanks a listener bopper recommending the end of the in a sense you can hear all the songs listeners are recommending at the music getting you through 2020 player. List on Spotify forum is produced by Judy Campbell Tina allowed Arianna Proudlock a Taurus and Susan Britton our senior editor is Dan's all our engineer is Danny bring our and our intern is Jamison Weiss our executive editor is even talking Lindsay and our chief content officer is Holly current and I mean to Kim thanks for listening have a great weekend. Funds for the production of forum are provided by the members of k.q.e.d. Public Radio and the Germanicus Foundation and the generosity foundation Stay with us we've got Science Friday coming up next 1st though Joe has some problems going on in San Francisco looks like their road work is back although from earlier it was southbound and now it's northbound one a one north of Cesar Chavez and traffic is backed up solid behind that from the 280 interchange Castro Valley 5 of us down top of the greater even Canyon a new collision reported there blocking a lane north a video a little bit slow because of an earlier accident near 23rd and also cemetery a bridge westbound high rise there might be a stall right lane Joe McConnell for k.q.e.d. Thanks Joe and support for k.q.e.d. Comes from actor a creator of the Karl map go Evie program presenting in conjunction with Peninsula clean energy drive electric a primer on the benefits of E.V.A.'s on October 18th act Terra dot org Good morning I'm Sandy Althouse thanks for joining us today you're listening to d.f.m. San Francisco k.q.e.d. Iowa family are file in Sacramento it's 11 o'clock. The Cy fry book club is back and we're talking Afro Futurism I'm Ira Flatow and this is Science Friday. The book club is tackling another short story this one about a woman who really really does not want to upgrade to a smart home despite persistent sales people in Africa I'm sure as I'm honoring the ancestors and recovering our history is such a huge part of the work working so what has all that got to do with Afro Futurism We'll find out plus we revisit with 2 of this week's Nobel Prize winners to talk about crisper you can think about it almost like a pair of scissors for d.n.a. And black holes the situation that we now call a black hole in those days as in the even have a word for it stay with us. Live from n.p.r. News I'm Lakshmi saying the outer bands of Hurricane Delta have begun lashing the coast of Louisiana this is a major storm with top sustained winds of 120 miles per hour the same region was hit just 6 weeks ago by a even stronger hurricane Laura N.P.R.'s John Burnett reports people have been evacuating for days both Ortiz have told people in the barrier islands and coastal towns of Louisiana to leave forecasters are predicting another punishing cycle own with winds that can tear a building apart and as much as 11 feet of storm surge there is a mandatory evacuation order and like Charles which is not recovered from a Category 4 hurricane Laura neighborhoods are empty and blue tarps precariously cover roofs torn off only weeks ago Hurricane delta is that 10th named hurricane of this extraordinary 2020 season which is a record this will be the 6th storm to hit Louisiana the governor calls this storm season relentless John Burnett n.p.r. News laugh yet Louisiana the White House is now promoting a coronavirus relief package that economic adviser Larry Kudlow calls breakthrough stuff I think the president approved it I'm going to guess because it will include the economic assistance direct mail checks I think that's going to be in there and I think allies are going to be in there were yesterday House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made clear there would be no stand alone bill to help the airline industry without a larger more comprehensive relief package earlier today Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell complain that the process is being hijacked by political posturing in the run up to the election he says that's why he thinks a deal that stands to affect millions of Americans should wait until after November 3rd Well House Democrats have introduced legislation to create a commission to rule on a president's fitness for office. N.P.R.'s Kelsey Snow reports the legislation would not apply to President Trump's current term Democrats say its purpose is to provide guidance for Congress House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says the bill to create a bipartisan commission is not meant to determine if President Trump is fit for office she says that is a question that will be determined by voters in a matter of weeks so this isn't about any judgment anybody has about somebody's behavior this is about a diagnosis a professional medical diagnosis Palosi says the legislation was a response to questions about the process called for in the 25th Amendment to the Constitution that arose when Trump was diagnosed with COPD 19 Republicans including Trump have criticised policy for appearing to consider implementing the process to remove Trump from office Kelsey Snell n.p.r. News Washington. The Dow is up more than half a percent since the opening 20597 this is n.p.r. News live from k.q.e.d. News I'm Brian why one of the country's leading experts on infectious diseases told a u.c. Berkeley audience that some universities made quote dramatic mistakes in reopening campuses k.q.e.d. Shannon Lin reports at a virtual event hosted by u.c. Berkeley on Thursday night White House current a virus advisor Dr Anthony found she responded to students question calling the decision for some colleges to bring students back on campus naive The main problem according to Dr Pratt she was when students ended up testing positive for Komen 1000 and school officials decided to send them back home infecting communities there when they get infected don't send them home if them they keep them comfortable when they recover get them back to class universities in the banqueting Berkeley and San Francisco State are largely remote through the spring semester if officials do decide to reopen campus she says they should test students every couple weeks I'm Shannon and then k.q.e.d. Needs a small number of Burchell Unified School District elementary school students could be back in the classroom later this month the school board voted to approve a phase of its reopening plan this would allow younger students who have been facing quote considerable learning challenges during Distance Learning to come back in groups of 8 with 2 teachers if it all goes well the cohort size could increase to 14 early next month the board delayed a vote that would have open schools further saying more community input was needed the earliest that reopening could happen would be December 2nd I'm Brian Watt k.q.e.d. News support comes from here somebody America has a county where listeners can stay work or play and learn remotely and wide open so . Faces more at your Samedi dot com support for n.p.r. Comes from c. 3 c. 3 dot Ai software and able to organizations to use artificial intelligence at enterprise scale solving previously unsolvable business problems learn more at c 3 dot a I and by the listeners of k.q.e.d. Cloudy skies today with highs mid sixty's to low seventy's and it will be a spare the air day today as well as tomorrow 73 the high for Livermore and in San Francisco we should see a high of 66. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow a bit later in the hour the cypher i Book Club returns with a book about Afro Futurism But 1st last week President Trump announced that he had tested positive for covert 19 and was admitted to Walter Reed National Military Medical Center this Tuesday he left the hospital returned to the White House there are still many questions about the status of his health the experimental treatments he received and who else in the White House and in Congress may have been infected who marry or Fran is here to fill us in on the latest updates He's a staff writer at Vox and based out of Washington d.c. Welcome back thanks Ira Ok let's see if we can parse a lot of this stuff throughout the week there have been mixed messages about Trump's health status do we know how severe his case might be do we know what his actual condition is well we got an update on Thursday evening from White House physician Sean Connelly and he reported that the president's vitals his heart rate blood oxygen and blood pressure and breathing rate were all normal and that there was no indication that the illness was progressing nor any side effects of the drugs but he also said that this Saturday would mark 10 days since Trump's initial diagnosis and this sort of confirms the timeline that had been a little bit vague which indicates that the president likely was diagnosed on October on and according to c.d.c. Guidelines you know isolation precautions can start being relaxed 10 days after the onset of symptoms so the latest update does clarify some of these things but there's still a lot that's up in the air for example we still don't know the date of his last negative test correct yes the White House has been a little bit as a tent to release that information Similarly when John Connally was questioned about the president's lung scans and any you know anomalies that were there he cited patient privacy laws and that's kind of concerning because we know for a fact that you know ask. Patients have seen lesions in their lungs develop as a result of this infection even patients who had a mild course of the illness so that remains a possibility and also there are people that have had long term complications even after they've supposedly gotten better from this illness so the president may not be out of the woods yet there may still be some issues with breathing or even potential blood clotting so he's currently back in the White House claims he's feeling fine ready to hold large rallies do we know what kind of guidelines then he is following for example about quarantining Well we know that White House staff have been encouraged to you know where personal protective equipment things like face masks but that's not been historically enforced very well at the White House and that's part of the reason they were in the situation to begin with and the president said that he wants to return to in person rallies and you know the White House position said that he can return to public events and so very likely that a lot of these restrictions that may have been in place for this past week will start being relaxed let's talk about the experimental treatment he received. Specially a drug produced by the company regenerate on what type of treatment is this well this drug is a combination of 2 different monoclonal antibodies and that's why it's called an antibody cocktail basically these are the proteins that the immune system generates to attack the virus and prevent it from causing an infection and what this company did was they used an engineer version that was produced from genetically engineered animals as well as one that was produced from a human that had recovered from Coburn 1000 and the idea is that mix of these 2 separate 80 bodies will create a situation where I would be very hard for the virus to slip by. And this is a drug that's still under testing this is still in phase 12 and 3 clinical trials there were some good results that were posted by the company late in September but right now to my knowledge there's no published data and there hasn't really been any clinical trials that are run to full completion nor any peer reviewed papers on this and so we really have. The company's word to go on about its effectiveness and now the president's word because he's been promoting this drug pretty aggressively now and he's called it a cure right I mean this is a treatment this is not been classified as a cure that's right you know the president received this very early on in his course of treatment and you know he still had to be hospitalized and still had to have pretty severe medical intervention so it may have helped him recover a little bit faster but the fact is that you know this still meant that the disease was quite dangerous to him he's had a test showing that he's had the antibodies to the virus work to these antibodies tell us at this point probably not all that much I mean he receives a very high dose of this I regenerate on treatment at the highest dose that's available and so some physicians looking at those results have said that you know it's very likely that the antibody test that he had this week was likely residual antibodies from that initial dose of the medication and not antibodies that were produced by his own body that can take up to 2 weeks to produce and regenerate is asking for emergency approval by the f.d.a. What are the implications of this what does emergency approval meet right emergency approval means that you know more doctors will have access to this drug and they can have at use their own discretion to and then a stretch of patients previously and this was even though it was an experimental drug it was available on her compassionate use guidelines which means that it's only available on a case by case basis and there's a lot more back and forth but with emergency use the standard is that it has and likely that if it were as full f.d.a. Approval means that the drug has a demonstrated benefits of the slightly lower bar than what we would get with typical approval but again this is also still an acknowledgement this is a stopgap that we don't fully know before benefits and potentially the harmful effects of this drug as well there's still a risk here and of course Trump is saying that he wants this treatment for everyone but this is a really costly drug is it not yet this is an intravenous drug you know I can cost thousands of dollars for a court. Of treatment and this is a highly specialized drug it's produced using genetical a genetic engineering and it's also harvested from people who've recovered from the illness so it's yeah very complicated to manufacture and it's also something that's going to be kind of difficult to scale up and yes it's also very expensive and the president has been given sort of a cocktail of different treatments I think it's been described as throwing in the kitchen sink approach and no one has ever been given this combination of drugs do we have any idea what all of these do in the body together or how they might interact not really and that's kind of the concern here you know doctors often expressed concern about you know this v.i.p. Syndrome where if you have a very high profile patient they try to give them everything that they have in their disposal but really in May make more sense to have just one targeted approach where you either try to tamp down the immune systems overreactions or boost the immune system that's having a hard time fighting off the infection so for example like in addition to this region arranged by the cocktail The president also received x. And Matheson this is an corticosteroid and it has the effect of actually tamping down on the immune system now this is one of the few drugs that actually has a demonstrated benefit on mortality This is according to studies and it can actually save the lives of patients who had colon 1000 but only in severely ill patients patients who needed oxygen supporter who needed to be integrated and that's because it can tamp down on some of these conditions of the new system overreacting like you know the cytokines farm which you may have heard about and that's where that benefit comes in and then there is an antiviral drug that the president also was even called Rendez of here and this is a drug that also has had some indication that it can be effective there is just a clinical trial that was up almost this week that showed that patients who received the drug they were released from the hospital within 10 days whereas the patients received a plea placebo were recovered within 15 days and so it had a benefit in reducing the course of the almost all of these things taken together makes it harder to tease out which drug was doing the heavy lifting here and. We don't still know how they all interact as you know so we don't know which one has been most effective for the president Yeah and that's important to figure out because it's not likely that anybody else will be able to get all of these drugs at the same time very likely doctors will have to make careful decisions about what individual drugs they prescribe to patients and sometimes you know that requires figuring out what these drugs actually do when we now know that there have been dozens of people around the president in the White House and the staff in the Pentagon who have tested positive We're told there is frequent testing at the White House do we know what type of testing the White House has been using Well the White House and the it's been using a system from Abbott Labs This is a genetic test called id now and this was a rapid testing system that was released over the summer but this is a test that also had some issues with accuracy that was generally the trade off that because it's a faster test there is a little bit of a reduction in some of the accuracy of the results but White House staff have had access to these tests at their own discretion over the summer but then in August that's when the White House and randomized mandatory testing so it was pretty late in the game where the White House the force the testing regime but to this point we still don't know how regular That was how systematically staffers were being tested and we don't often the president himself is being tested and that's part of the reason why he has such a hard time keeping track of his illness we don't know when he was last negative and when he was 1st so there has been reliance on testing but not on wearing masks right and you know the White House hasn't enforced mass mandates and we saw that you know in some of the recent events that were held at the White House where very few people were wearing masks or even keeping distant from each other and so that's created a situation where you know the risk is much higher individually many of these measures. Have a marginal benefit but taken together wearing masks maintaining social distance staying in well ventilated places outdoors together that provides a robust barrier for against infection but on the other hand if you do none of those things if you are very close to people. Not wearing masks in close proximity indoors for long periods of time as the White House has been doing all that can dramatically boost the rest with all the people who have been testing positive the White House staff Congress has a say the Pentagon is the White House now considered a hot spot Yes you know in Washington d.c. Transmission of coal in 1000 has been fairly low and now this is one of the epicenters in the city and city officials are now concerned that the White House is in handling this quite properly and city officials reached out to the White House this week saying that they wanted to start implementing a contact tracing regimen where they try to figure out where all these White House officials were and who they come into contact with and it's kind of surprising that they haven't implemented this already that the White House has been kind of dragging its feet on figuring out who else may have been exposed and we keep finding out more and more people connected to this one White House and that the nomination ceremony for Supreme Court justice in the county Barrett have been exposed to this and so we may still yet learned that more people were connected to this cost or one of the most visible Trump confidants is Governor Chris Christie who also tested positive and admitted himself to the hospital in New Jersey last Saturday so he submitted better week he's still in the hospital after 6 days do we know anything about his status it's been pretty quiet yeah it's been pretty quiet about him and a number of other officials that have also been exposed and tested positive the same story is true for just about everybody else connected to this cluster that we don't quite know who has been infected how severely and what their current status and charms physician has cleared him though to start attending rallies this weekend the president's position has said that the president would be clear to start attending public events starting Saturday Wow So we'll see what happens this weekend thanks Sue mare you bet the American fun a staff writer at Vox and based out of Washington d.c. We're going to take a break and when we come back the Nobel Prizes were announced this week we'll take a look at the winners in physics medicine in chemistry. Stay with us we'll be right back after this break. I'm Ira Flatow this is Science Friday from w. N.y.c. Studios. Support for k.q.e.d. Comes from soup as fertility center for doctors who provides a single point of contact personal one on one individual ice treatment that has helped built families for over 30 years and men see any sleep world announcing its October mattress event their wide selection is available online by phone with a sleep consultant or by private in-store appointment so customers can try a mattress before buying at sleep World dot com Carolina a former Republican stronghold became competitive for Democrats in their quest for control of the Senate on the next politics with Amy Walter. Join us for the takeaway comes up this afternoon at one. Public radio. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow Yeah I know there's a lot going on this week so we can forgive you if you haven't been paying close attention to the Nobel Prizes this week the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine went jointly to Harvey Jay alter Michael Houghton and Charles m. Rice for the discovery of the hepatitis c. Virus in chemistry Emmanuelle shop on t. a Of the Max Planck Institute and Jennifer Doudna of the University of California at Berkeley won the prize for their work on the technique known as crisper back in 2017 Dr Doudna summarized the technique for us on Science Friday you can think about almost like a pair of scissors for d.n.a. In the cell and the great thing about this tool is that it's programmable so scientists can directly kill the sensors where they go in the cell which piece of d.n.a. To cut and and to do that relatively inexpensively and quickly so it's become a very widespread technology for altering the d.n.a. In virtually all types of cells but it's not initially was the Nobel winners were going for it's a great story of how curiosity driven versus search aimed in one direction ended up uncovering something that could be employed in a completely different way I think that you know the way that bacteria can program proteins to cut viral d.n.a. And protect themselves from viral infection was the original work that we were doing and the slow the project of international collaboration with Emmanuel Sharpe and she and her laboratory and that that uncovers that mechanism that we realized could be employed in a very different way namely for Gene editing it's a technique that quickly took the molecular and cellular biology research world by storm there's sort of a very important timing aspect to technologies and I would say that's true for Gene editing it was a a tool that was you know. Very much the scientific community was was ready for we needed a way to manipulate d.n.a. And cell given all the d.n.a. Sequencing that's going on now you know whole genomes being sequenced and and more and more information about the content of genomes and what was missing was a way to rewrite the way to manipulate that information and when that school became available as you pointed out it was very quickly adopted globally Congratulations to Emmanuel sharp Antti a and Jennifer Doudna in physics the award was split one half went to mathematician Richard Penrose for the discovery that black hole formation is a robust prediction of the general theory of relativity we talked about it on Science Friday back in 2013 about the work he and the late Stephen Hawking did on black holes matter pulled so tightly into itself by gravity that it forms what physicists call a singularity the thing we were trying to do was to show the singularities 1st of all in the black hole and secondly in the Big Bang. Which people knew about already but only in very very special circumstances when the situation was exactly symmetrical and the materials involved didn't have any pressure and so on so the special and people didn't necessarily believe those singularities would be general things which could occur under completely general circumstances so I started to think about these things in terms of what you call top a logical argument that means you don't solve equations you use argument quite general arguments to show that in this case the singularity had to exist somewhere the situation that we now call black hole in those days they didn't even have a word for it but. That the matter collapses down past a point of no return with point of no return with the thing I call the trapped surface that it doesn't depend on any symmetry and. You know like that's just a point of no return that you can characterize and when it gets to that level you can use these sort of top logical arguments to show that somewhere in the future of that collapse there must be a singularity What does it matter to me as an average citizen if there are singularities out there in the. Well it's not so much the same guys because you can get out of him you see the ones in the black holes it's more that the black hole is a stable thing it doesn't collapse down and this was shot again you could imagine that if the matter collapsed in an irregular way it might swirl around in some complicated when they come swishing out again but what these arguments show is that doesn't happen it collapses and keeps on collapsing in the same way that the symmetrical situation did and it becomes singular Now the singularity is not accessible to us in the black hole the Big Bang is another question because of course that singularity is in a sense the origin of all the things we know about black holes and then all of a sudden after your papers or your papers are published few books were written in black holes really called people's imaginations were you surprised by the amount of public interest in your work to quite a long time. I was surprised what it was actually wasn't a great deal of interest and I mean it took I mean I used to go to these meetings close the Texas meetings on going to stick astrophysics I was that the 1st one that was when people were just beginning to realize that you had situations which might be something like a black hole and it took a long time I remember going to several of the media surveys 2 years or so and each time there was a bit more interest in a bit more interest and it took quite a while before people really swung around in the general community believe that these objects were really likely to be there why do you think there is so why why are people so fascinated by saying well if but he wild things out and they're also I mean now we know there are actually huge ones there are you know 10000000000 times the mass of the sun there's an absolute whopping ones our galaxy has one which is about 4000000 tons of massive sun. There are now known ones that are far far bigger than that new Nova list Richard Penrose the other half of the physics prize was split between Reinhard Ganz own and Andrea Gaz for the discovery of one of those much bigger black holes a super massive compact object at the center of our galaxy we'll be talking more about that in the weeks ahead but for now Congratulations everybody. Among all the covert chaos of the past week I want to catch up on some other important stories that have gotten less attention than they deserve this week the vice presidential debate included some discussion of climate change and at the presidential debate just a week ago the night was filled with interruptions and lines and messy back and forth but a highlight of the event if one can be found centered around the topic of climate change. Climate change has not been brought up in these debates in over a decade and the only new it's is here to fill us in on the climate part of the debate and other science headlines and now he's a science journalist and author based out of San Francisco welcome back hey thanks for having me back I remember the 4 years ago there was not one question about the climate right that's right and so in a debate that was mostly characterized by yelling it was quite extraordinary to have that one phase of the debate devoted to talking about climate change that was actually a relatively clear exchange between the president and former vice president well it was actually very quiet because the president the only time in the debate never interrupted Joe Biden once in those 12 minutes it's true and Biden got a chance to talk a lot about his plans for what he would do if he became president including developing green jobs rejoining the Paris climate Accords and a whole host of of other issues including simply acknowledging that climate change is caused by people and that people have a role to play in mitigating it a little bit of it I think the president said yeah the president admitted that a tiny amount of climate change might perhaps because by people but his solutions to climate change were as always to fix the economy to loosen regulations on things like emissions from cars and it was never really clear how he square the circle on that how that was sort of fixing climate change but Biden had a very very different vision and I think it was especially good when he was talking about things like setting up charging stations for electric vehicles and really laying the groundwork for a new green infrastructure and then the interesting thing about that is he actually had a point by point plan that he had come out with that's right the Biden plan which he was very careful to say was not. The same thing as the green new deal although it does of course contain a lot of elements of the Green New Deal and it clearly takes its inspiration from there let's move on to another topic or hearing about clinical trials these days because of the covert 19 vaccine and criticism of the f.d.a. About this tell me more about that so Science magazine just did an investigative report where they spent many months filing Freedom of Information Act requests with the f.d.a. To find out how the agency has been regulating people who violate its guidelines for conducting clinical trials and doing a lot of other kinds of medical research which the agency oversees and what this investigative report discovered was that over the past 3 years roughly or 4 since Trump has been elected that the agency has kind of declined in its efforts to prevent people from violating its rules and so what the investigators found was that for example during the Obama administration almost 150 warnings were issued to clinicians and researchers about their research practices and a number of those people were in fact sanctioned formally Some were barred from conducting any clinical research but during the trial administration there have been less than 10 disqualifications and it's been a really big change for an agency whose entire job is in some ways to oversee how clinical trials are done and a lot of the violations we see have to do with how patients in clinical trials were treated how accurate the trials were and of course all this stuff is very interesting right now because reliving it these facts in trials so how does this. Lax oversight from the f.d.a. Affect the outcomes of these trials or development of treatments as he just pointed out the effect that this has is that we can't be sure as the public that this agency is really doing its due diligence it's investigating individuals who violated their rules who have say not informed their subjects during trials about all of the different things that they're going to be going through they have been reporting negative results in trials and so this could mean that when a vaccine comes to market we can't have as much confidence that the f.d.a. Has really investigated it and has investigated all of the different actors involved in doing these trials because a lot of the time pharmaceutical companies will outsource these trials to organizations or researchers who specialize in running these trials and so if one of these organizations keeps violating the rules and the f.d.a. Doesn't ever sanction them for it even though the f.d.a. Knows they're violating the rules it raises a lot of questions about how the agency is doing its work I'm Ira Flatow and this is Science Friday from w.-o. N.y.c. Studios. One rather story or 2 to talk about a very Annalise story and I say that because the type of archaeology story that only you could dig up. I had to get a bad joke in there that's archaeologist found evidence of people punished by having their noses cut off is that right that's right so the old saying about cutting off your nose actually has its basis in real history so archaeologists and anthropologists have known for a while that in England and other places that people were punished for various crimes by having their noses cut off and we see this written into law in England in the Anglo-Saxon period you know about a 1000 years ago and a group of archaeologists recently discovered actual evidence of this on a skull of a woman who lived in the 800 in England and she was young she was probably around 18 and it's likely that she was probably just way you based on what we know from the laws about who gets their nose cut off and she was probably accused of adultery because we also have evidence that this was part of the law that women especially were singled out for having their noses cut off for this kind of crime and it's really interesting that they were able to find the skeleton actually been kind of buried in a vault for about 50 years and they found the vaults they found his box at the school that had never been clean and discovered that there were these markings very distinctive markings on the face that made it obvious that a sharp instrument had been used to cut off the person's nose and upper lip and so what this tells us is that the practice of punishing slaves and women with this particularly brutal act goes back further than the written record because we do have it in the written record about 100 years later so. Take it as an example of how law enforcement has been treating prisoners cruelly and brutally for a very long time and in this woman's life was finally revealed and so now we know the harm that was done to her very sad story let's go to a more uplifting story the last hour you have looks at Croke consciousness when I think crows are pretty smart don't worry we already knew that they were very smart because crows have been very popular with animal behavior researchers because they're very good at solving multi-stage puzzles they're easy to teach about puzzles and they they solve them at this level that's almost like a human child and so this is a further example of how smart they are because crows it turns out know what they don't know which is something that makes you very smart and the when researchers figured this out was they gave Crows a test where they had to push a button when they saw a little light go off but each time they did the test the researchers changed the rules so they'd say to they teach the croquet hit the blue button if you see the light Ok now hit the red button if you see the light and as the crows were having to change their frame of reference they were also doing brain scans on the birds so they could see that the birds weren't just randomly picking a button to push they want to sort of like I don't I don't understand the rules have changed I don't care they were actually using neurons in their brains associated with cognition so they were reevaluating the task figuring out what they had to do and then poking the button to show that they had seen the light so they called this knowing what you don't know because it shows that they were able to with each successive Test they were having to think about the. Again they weren't just acting Mechanically they were reevaluating the situation how do you measure the inside of a crow's brain you used brain scanning sec Meek's just like the ones that we use on humans I thought maybe you'd use a crowbar. Ok yet. The light fell again and only an informative and only new it's is a science journalist and author based out of San Francisco thanks for taking time to be with us today thanks for having me we're going to take a break and when we come back the sigh fry book club returns yes with a story about smart houses and a woman who really doesn't want one Stay with us we'll be right back after this short break. This is Science Friday from w. N.y.c. Studios Science Friday is supported by the m. Gen foundation learn more about their commitment to inspiring the scientists of tomorrow at Amgen inspires dot com Science Friday's also supported by Schmidt features a philanthropic initiative founded by Eric and Wendy Schmidt support also comes from the Catholic foundation advancing science for the benefit of humanity at Catholic Foundation dot org And from Progressive insurance providing tools designed to help customers consider options from multiple insurers comparisons available at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive Now that's progressive Science Friday is produced by the Science Friday initiative dedicated to increasing the public's access to scientific information learn more about their work at Science Friday dot com. This week on Science Friday it's the War of the world. Venus versus Mars which planet do you prefer which is more worthy of exploration and searching for a life. Joining us for a solar system smack down but without the chip on Science Friday from going to n.y.c. Studio. At Science Friday coming up tonight at 8 support for k.q.e.d. Comes from the Asian art museum visitors can explore 2 full floors of refresh galleries and special exhibitions that speak to this moments universal need for contemplation and healing details and safety protocols at Asian art dot org The coverage of breaking news is made possible by k.q.e.d. Members one way to help us bring you this coverage is by donating a vehicle you no longer need learn more ik k.q.e.d. Dot org slash cars 4 time Grammy Award winner Lenny Kravitz joins us with his new memoir Let Love Rule. By hearing that. We have here now coming up at all in excuse me at 12 right after Science Friday That's at noon here on k.q.e.d. Public Radio. This is Science Friday I'm Ira Flatow would you trade your privacy for convenience it's a central question to consider as our world is increasingly online increasingly smart depending on the devices you have you know that Ai is watching everything from what temperature your home is set to to what you watch on t.v. And it's a question at the heart of the next story in this week's Book Club as we continue our discussion of the anthology new son's original speculative fiction by people of color suffer book club captain Christy Taylor has more. If you've ever grappled with whether to add more tech to your life or felt pressured to upgrade before you felt ready Andrea Harrison's short story dum house is for you the story follows Cinnamon the so-called dumb house is plenty for her but nevertheless she's constantly pestered by traveling salesman who want her to upgrade to the latest in self-contained tech abodes dumb house was this week's Book Club assignment from the collection a new science which was edited by Niecy Shaw and it's a story that covers a lot of ground from the ways technology can be used to spy on us to how it can be part of spiritual practice to this movement in art and culture called Africa Futurism which we'll talk about in a 2nd Joining me again is ice and Matthews managing editor of the journal Science Fiction and director of literary programming for the Museum of Science Fiction escape velocity conference Welcome back I. Mean back yeah it's good to have you back so we're talking this week about the story dumb house it has a lot going on we meet Cinnamon who is this woman who just wants to be left alone counters to a traveling salesman who are trying to convince her to upgrade her house from a dumb house to a smart technology driven your toilet analyzes your poop kind of house she says no law at the end of the day the salesmen leave but we like them now do you feel like I missed anything really important in getting to that summary so when I 1st read this if felt a little bit abstract kind of like you know it started in the middle of the story because this is kind of an epilogue to well the magic for small change which is her 2016 book gives us a lot more kind of depth and nuance to how age and technology have changed things from the kind of techno spiritual world that she lived in in our current time but I also found it interesting in thinking of its relation to Kelsey's story it feels kind of like a different type of ghost story like you know there are the ghosts of her ancestors but then there's also the ghosts who fly below the radar of technology. Well surveillance and so you know while last time we very much had the spirits themselves being carried around I thought it was interesting to look at what it means to be a ghost in a world where visibility kind of signifies yet I really liked also so ever Harrison she's also a playwright and you can see a lot of that in this story like we have everyone's in costume all these props and special effects you know and it reads very much like a one act play for me in a lot of ways too that said I don't want to go too much farther without introducing our 3rd accomplice in this conversation k. Tempest Bradford is a speculative fiction writer her work includes steampunk about ancient Egypt She's also the lead teacher in the writing the other workshop series which is a resource for writers who wish to write about groups that they themselves do not belong to Him Their Tempest. Nice to be here Tempest as you were reading done house what were you most thinking about as you unpack the world of the story I was keying into a lot of the conversation that was sort of being had about technology and the needs of technology and how you know cinnamon was like No I don't need this stuff because I was taught how to like live in a world where I did need technology to do all these things for me that really felt important because yeah there's a lot of conversations being had about that especially now like this year around like what do we do if this does become an apocalypse situation because I think that our science which it is is primed us for this to like think about what skills we might need to have what things you might need to know if all this technology just goes away I just moved into a new place and one of the things that I finally did when I moved to this new place is I got some smart clothes and some I was like This is a slippery slope you're all the way down the slippery slope No it's only lights so I like that this story was really digging into what it means to be a person who is just saying no no no to this but then like it's Which is it becomes a story about these characters with these characters me to tell I never. Last week we talked a little bit about ethnic future isms about how future isms are about giving us futures that are not whitewashed that are not all white people living in this sort of clean neat technological future we didn't really talk about Africa Futurism but I would love for you to sort of unpack that for us so how would you define after Futurism and where it comes from and what it's doing. In my work and my understanding of Africa featurism you know most people in the last few years have looked up the definition and seen Mark Garry's 1901 conversation after Futurism used to be a lot more African-American centric at least in some of its early iterations so I think in the larger growth of the after Futurist movement it's become much more after diasporic which you do see a lot of in here since work in particular the African deities you know the juju what they call the who do who do all the b.s. Cultural artifacts that come from the African cultures and so what I believe she calls Jew tech is that kind of techno spiritual blend which is one of my favorite things about opera featurism the idea that we are seeing a culture which has historically been deemed primitive that is organically integrated with advanced technology and in this story in particular there were a few hints of the ways that black culture in the you know early 21st century kind of carries forward so in the beginning of the story she talks about how everyone essentially talks black now picked English of the 21st century is heavily inflected by black culture she discovers they're actually trying to sell her own technology back to her so there are these clear kind of colonial dives of the things that have been appropriated and taken but at the same time she is still creating this culturally inflected technology that I think that the Internet has brought to. There are a lot more people from a lot of different like you know branches of the African Diaspora to start having conversations with each other so that now there can be more. Recognition of what people from different parts of the Astor and different parts of Africa have been doing with you know speculative fiction that we can like put under the umbrella of Afro Futurism for a long time there are people who are thinking of it in a very literal way and they're like well it's Futurism though because Africa future isn't right but like Black Panther is after Futurism takes place in the quote now and it can apply to things that happened you know all throughout history like there are just ways of looking at history and lenses through which you can write it in a speculative realm that take on a very distinct flavor when a person who is of the African Diaspora writes it and it's the same with other groups of are just people fall under the by Pew see a moral as well it's not even just about like the black people telling like stories about black stuff right it's a way of looking at. The future and the now that's inflicted by our technology was terrific to us and a way of looking at the past and what will be could do with the past and this is the in my beloved new Suns because it brings in all these different voices from those umbrella. Yeah and this isn't really a story about it wasn't necessarily a story about how technology is that like it is not as simple as that her life you know rests on technology to a certain extent she just wants to have agency over how it shows up in her life There's one quote co-author of read them how they are a nuisance a gateway drug and so it really highlighted in the conversation they have about the idea that it is a threat specifically because you can grow your own sued you have your own means of social communication it was a very kind of corporate town idea that they're trying to buy up every individual so that everyone will be entirely owned by the system and I think we see that in a lot of ways today and a lot of just Topi is go there I found that idea really interesting that. The past is a gateway drug holding onto the past as somehow a gateway drug to revolution Yeah definitely I also I think about it in terms of even stuff that's going on right now where there are certain entities that are always trying to control things where you're like why are you trying to control that in some places it's illegal for you to collect rainwater it's one of the falls out of the sky why would that be illegal but it's like tied in to all the systems of they need to control like who gets the water and when then how and and if you do your own rainwater that disrupts that system and it's like if they can allow somebody to live in a way that is not sanction that does not benefit the corporation that is a threat to them and I remember I saw a story about the rainwater was on Twitter and one of those threads were some I was like What was the thing that radicalized you and that was one of the stories of my . Told about how they found other town had a prohibition against collecting rainwater and another person who was like my mother used to keep a garden and then suddenly keeping your own garden was outlawed and they poured bleach all over the garden that she made in the community yard I don't like a lot of dystopias go that way but like the only reason why comes up and just talk is because something is happening right now you mention the co-op the co-ops are a nuisance quote and I don't know that we see that much of cinnamon sort of larger landscape of where she's living but it's implied that she's part of a community like it's implied that she is working with other people to meet needs collectively in some way and there's a sense to that what is what is frowned upon in this sort of corporate dystopia is that community is also sort of part of the rebellion against surveillance definitely I think the term that would be used in disability studies would be interdependence so interdependence is in that regard seeing you know in the same way some people see welfare as we have to take care of others as opposed to none of us get anywhere entirely alone all of us are in some way reliant on others and it's a matter of how much we embrace that and I thought it was interesting even thinking about the juju Tech she has and you know her sparkly dragon body suit and these masks that she has and it's clear that she's selling them to someone as part of her living she was also at some point an engineer and she was intact herself and so she's still in the very real sense that all of us must say she saw us eat at the end of the day. Last week when we were talking about even just sort of the concept of an anthology like new sons and some of the stories that are told when we actually give storytelling platforms to racialize writers is the embody. Meant the process of inhabiting a body and how that is realized differently by people who are racialized in their society was there anything for you that came up in this story that felt like that was part of that conversation. So definitely I mean there's the disguise element with her friends. You know I mean style face covering and modified voices which is a whole lot so I think sentiment you know in well the magic for small change you know she ultimately ends up being in a kind of 3 way relationship with these 2 friends one of whom and she never imagine that anyone like that would love her so in this future where she's reunited with these people she used to love and kind of still does there's a real sense of her coming back into her embodiment in the context of her past life that I thought was interesting because it was truly you know it's both a polyamorists and an intra interracial relationship. Yeah and another aspect of that is. How how the theater of it does play into this because when they 1st come to her porch she sort of recognizes them as people who are playing a role in the fact that they were all like in this theater troupe together and then there's a point at which they'd like recite a line from you know this play that they had that together as part of you know a ritualistic magical thing that's happening and you know when I knew it was going to be important when Cinnamon 1st thinks you know these people are playing roles like this about me important. The way that that manifested through the story you know and how like they literally embody like one type of person and then suddenly these 2 people embody a whole other types of people and and how that all plays into what's going on with the techno spiritual aspects of the story and how it like rolled into what happens at the climax it's all like so interconnected and all like just again very specific to who the 2 people who come to her door embody when they 1st come to the door and when they leave that door are to see so different things and it's all worlds into the whole theatrical You know ritualistic spiritual stuff that that Andrea is like playing with with a story through mind is that this is Science Friday I'm Christy Taylor if we talk about science fiction or speculative fiction as a way to rehearse possible worlds is there a takeaway or is there like a lesson learned or is there something that where we're practicing that the story gives us there are so many things that the story is doing all that once that yeah it's hard to like have have a takeaway I do feel like I want to. To make everybody read this story and have a conversation with me about like what are our needs going to be if if everything really does fall apart going back to what I said the beginning and being like look like we need to are we going to be able to like build a house on some land with a greenhouse and be able to grow some stuff that we can sell to the Co-op because if not we need to get together the skills. That I think is a conversation that I would really love to have with people because I feel like that's one of the sort of. Tangible takeaways that is something that you can like discuss and discuss how you could apply to your life because I don't know if we can all necessarily apply the techno spiritual stuff to our lives even though like I personally I'm like I need to get on this what I loved about this story is the refusal to be assimilated and erased and I think while the story sends a good message at the end that you know like she says Taiwo points out that it is good to have people tugging at your heartstrings it is good to have people that care about you and to not be withdrawn from the world but she is willing to stand her ground and fight to preserve the culture that has been passed down through the generations and so I think something good to take away from it is kind of forcing us to challenge our ideas how much participation is mandatory if anything the stories continue it is encouraging us to think about why are we so invested in everyone joining it our way why is it that when progress happens everyone wants to get the new i Phone not just you. So I you know I think it's important and powerful to be reminded that the past does have value and that while holding on to the past can certainly hold us back there are things worse. And unfortunately we are out of time. Managing editor of the journal Science Fiction and director of literary programming for the Museum of Science Fiction escape velocity conference k. Tempest Bradford is a speculative fiction writer and a lead teacher for the writing the other workshop series Thank you both so much for your time today. Thank you one last thing we are giving away 10 free copies of new Psalms this week courtesy of the awesome folks at Palace books go to our website for an entry form plus an excerpt from Down House a chance to sign up for our newsletter and much more for Science Friday and Chrissy Taylor and like Christie says For more information on participating in this book club check out our website Science Friday dot com. Slash book club we've got all kinds of ways for you to get involved plus this week on The Science Friday vox pop back Book Club readers what are you thinking about as you read dumb House and other stories in new suns do you have a favorite story yet tell us your reaction that's on the Science Friday vox pop app wherever you get your apps just because as our director Our producers are Alexa Lim Christy Taylor Katie feathering Kathleen Davis have a great weekend we'll see you next week I'm Ira Flatow. Science Friday is supported by Progressive Insurance with a name your price tool providing information on a range of insurance coverage and price options more a progressive dot com or 1800 progressive Now that's progressive support for Science Friday also comes from the Research Corporation for science advancement nurturing teachers scholars and innovative basic research in a physical sciences at American colleges and universities since 1912 more at rest corp dot org And from the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation more information at more dot org Science Friday is produced by a Science Friday Initiative a nonprofit organization dedicated to increasing the public's access to science and scientific information learn more about their work at Science Friday dot com. Support the n.y.c. Studios on the next California Report magazine we're turning 25 this year so we're digging into our cocks this week how California's blaze trails from immigrant rights. To same sex marriage with this ring. I thee well and legalizing marijuana is the Jerry Garcia memorial elevator I'm Sasha join us later today for the California Report magazine here on key committee Public Radio That's this afternoon at 430 and tonight at 630 right now we're off to the Dublin grade Hello Julie definition. That is Sandy some minor injury crash on 580 westbound Eaton Canyon Road been plucky in the left lane but it back up to a foot hill road and that's where we're getting word of another crash in the left lane a couple cars there battling a car fire in Crockett eastbound 80 before coming Skyway look for that on the right hand shoulder it's a fine car pileup in Oakland westbound 24 after a highway 13 Nope lucky there on the right shoulder Julie dep is where he q.e.d. Traffic support comes from Lucky and lucky California support for k.q.e.d. Comes from me on presenting totally under control shot in secrecy Academy Award winning filmmaker Alex give me interview scientists and whistleblowers to expose the pandemic on demand October 13th and.