Time whatever happened, happened. If i had something great, i if i didnt, i wouldnt go. And i really loved it and it brought back so many stories and so many memories that when it was done, i felt like, okay. Ive had a really good life. And thats what the book is about. Rose an interview with the pope and a conversation Billy Crystal next. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose a new interview with pope francis has electified the catholic community. The cannedit conversation conducted over several days in august was published in 16 Different Countries on thursday. The pope used the opportunity to signal a hue approach to divisive issues like divorce, homosexuality, and abortion. Unless a new balance is found between the churchs doctrines and its Spiritual Mission the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards. Joining me is father matt malone, editor of america magazine, which published the pope 53 interview in the united states. And farther joseph mcshane, president of fordham university. Welcome, great to have you here. This is a great story. Youre the editor here. Tell me how this happened. You know, quite in a very casual way, we were sitting in my office here in midtown at the just a few weeks after the pope was lexingtoned, and one of my editors said, why dont we try to interview the pope. And rose thats exactly what i said with my producer, why dont we try to interview the pope. And they said, well have you examined examined in a few minutes. We had just lived through six weeks of unprecedented and unlikely events, the resignation of a pope, the election of an argentinean. And we started talking to our contacts in rome, and while we were in those conversations we realized that our colleagues at the jesuit journal in rome were also interested in getting an interview. And we said, you know, lets team up. And, you know, that might give us better odds of success. And so one of the italian jesuits went to the pope and said, would you be willing to sit down with us . And the pope said, yes. Rose just like that . Thats right. Just like that. So it really i mean, it obviously wouldnt have happened if the pope had said no. But it was the fact that he wanted to, i think, reach people in a different way. Reach people in a new way. Rose you think it had anything to do with the fact that he was a jesuit . I think so. I dont think thats irrelevant. Im not exactly shoe how that factored into it but im pretty sure it was relevant. Rose one of the questions is why did you become a jesuit. He said three things in particular struck me about the society, the missionary spirit, community, and discipline, and this is strange because im really, really undisciplined person. But their discipline, the way they manage their time, these things struck me so much. Yes, yeah. I think thats probably something that a lot of jesuits would tell you, which is rose discipline . Well, that they that we have a kind of desire to have god at the very center of our lives, but we need a community and an order and a way of proceeding that helps us do it. It. It structures our lives. Absolutely. Rose i got thumb morning and read the paper. Washington post francis addresses pastoral role, less emphasis on rules. Pope identifies with regular catholics. Washington post. New york times pope says church is obsessed with gays, abortion, birth controlam. What i took out of it is the following the pope is obsessed with his pastoral role, and he does not want the church simply to be caught up in all the conversation and all the debate, necessary debate, but only one of a number of doctrines of the church. So that it forgets that its mission for him serve the poor. I think youre absolutely correct. I think this is a moment i turn to matt for conversation about it i think this is a moment where the pope is trying to help the church get its pastoral bearings for the 21st century. And in so doing, he has he has spoken, but more importantly, i think hes modeled for us what he believes church has to be. It has to be the church that is missionary. And filled with mercy. In its outreach, has to be concerned with the poor he speaks about the poor as being the people from whom he will hear the voice of god calling to us a new conversion of heart. So i think, yes, i think the Washington Post has it absolutely correct. This is a very pastoral moment where the church is getting its bearings, and the pope is really, interestingly enough, feeling his way forward. I dont think he has a set idea. Except the poor, the gospel, god is central. Rose that was also what he was, too. You know . Yeah, no, thats certainly true. I mean, i would say that this is really a moment in which the pope is allowing helping us to get our pastoral bearings, but hes also hes doing that by reminding us what our priorities are, you know, and hes reminding us that the central truth of our faith is that we have this relationship with a god who has created and redeemed us in love. And all that the church teaches, all the church believes, all the church does is really only intelligible in light of that relationship. Rose make no mistake here he is not saying this a change in tone, not a change in doctrine. Right. Rose the church hasnt changed in terms of its attitude about gays, abortion, birth control. It has not changed. It may have change its tone, but not its doctrine. Thats true. The doctrine hasnt changed and he didnt announce a new teaching but i wouldnt underestimate the power of the shift because rose meaning it may be a new beginning in terms of the way we look at those things . I think thats certainly true. For instance, on the issue of homosexuality,un, the church in the modern era has always taught that gay and lesbian people ought to be embraced with a certain sensitivity, that we ought to affirm their inherent dignity, that we ought to be a place of welcome to them. In essence he has said we must try and look at each persons through gods eyes. Would god look at a person who is gay or has been involved in something that the rest of the world would find unacceptable, he said would god look that the person with anything but love and mercy . Thats important. Rose a lot of people would violently disagree with the idea that any of these things have to do with sin, but some interpret this and the churchs teachings that we love the sinner and hate the sin. There are a lot of interesting things in this interview, and im deeply grateful to matt and his staff for getting it. But if you look at how does he characterize himself . When hes asked, who are you . He says, i am a sir, and im not talking about categories. Of the he has this knowledge of himself, this expercongressional knowledge of himself as a sinner who is redeemed. This is what he says. This is the first question, i saw in the new york times. Who is jorge . I upon a sinner. This is the most accurate definition. It is not a figure of spenchg a politerary genre i am a sinner. And i think the fact that he is and this is not rhetorical. I take him at his word. The fact that he knows that is what makes him such an effective, i would say missionary of mercy. And i think thats the way he sees his ministry so far, a missionary of mercy, reaching up on the and identifying with people and saying i dont have a barrier between and you me. Were in the same boat. Were both sinners. And i love i love you. And thats i think thats an arresting sort of experience for us. Rose why did father spadaro do this, not father malone . Father spad armo speaks italian. laughter . Gl you have to go get your rosetta stone. And the journals contrent approved by the vatican so they have a known relationship. Rose they were a known quantity within the church . And it took place at his home . Where . In the papal in the popes room. Rose really . At the hotel where hes been living since the conclave. Rose he didnt go to the big apartment did did he . He said i went to the apostolic apartments and where all the popes have lived for searchries, and i heard within me a distinct no. Thats what he said. Rose god spoke. And he said its not luxurious. He says its tastefully decorated. But the problem is, its like an inverted funnel. He said people can very very few people can come and go at any one time because the entrance is narrow. And he said, and i cant live without people. I cant live without a community of people around me. So he said, if im going to be any good at this job, i cant live here. Rose he reviewed the manuscript. Did he change anything that we know of. Of. Not that wean of. He approved it in italian. We had it translated into knlsh and labored over it for about five weeks with a team of five italian translators. Rose you labored over it . Labored over it. Rose wald whatwould you labor over . Every word. Rose to make sure that what . To make sure we were correctly conveying to the relationship the meaning of what he was saying. You want to get the we didnt want to just get a literal translation. We wanted to conivate meaning of his words. Rose there is also this, who is and i asked this, this morning of cardinal dolan. Who is offended by this . Who is botherredly by this . Who within the church . Well, you know, thats a big question. Im going to go at it the opposite way. I would say and im not going out on too much of a limb here i would say most of the women and men who work in the parishes and in Frontline Ministry receive this with i would say unfamed joy, with great enthusiasm of spirit because it speaks in terms that resonate with the lived experience of those who are pastors, whether women or men. I think those who would not receive this with joy would be those who have conceived of the faith in narrow, dogmatic terms, and not in terms of what francis says at the beginning of faith is the encounter with the lord. And it goes beyond strictures. Rose would you count the living Pope Benedict among those . I think Pope Benedict and pope francis speak with one another, understand one another, and are very much in sync with one another. I think, however, the language is different. Benedict speaks a language of great erudition, and agreement precision. Francis, by his own admission, is someone who speaks a language which is more evocative and inviting; less precise more pastoral rose less scholarly. Less scholarly. And he admits that, that he does not have that same discipline of mind language of the heart. Its the language of a heart and the language of a pastoral heart. Rose is it fair to say, not knowing about jesuits and all men who come to the priesthood and those who come to work within church, men and women, that the driving thing for 90 of them is the articulation of what this pope has made . It is i come to the church because i want to do gods work. And i perceive gods work as helping those who cant help themselves. I think thats correct. And i think they say pope who is wrest ling with, in a very public way, the meaning of the pastoral constitution of the church in the modern world which talks about the necessity of the world for the churchs mission. Without the world rose when people ask me who do you most want to interview . I say the pope. When he comes to new york, well give a good recommendation. Hell come right in. Rose hell be talking to a sinner. Hell feel very much at home. He has, i think, developed not just there this interviewer he has developed a new papal idiom, and its an idiom of encounter and engagement. Using the phone. Using touch. Using the exuberance of his own heart, and using this, using the media. He has a sense of being a missionary, a paul in our generation. Rose i want to come back to the relationship with the pope pep ticket, who resigned. Right. Rose they consult . They talk . What do we know within the church about want relationship . We do know that they do see one another. We do know that pope francis refers to Pope Benedict with great affection as the old man, almost a grandfatherly sense. Rose i talked to the old man today and he said. With the affection that seems to be really at the heart of pope francis personality. He speaks of him with great affection, talks about listening to him and praises him and i think we can never think that this man is giving empty praise. This man talks the truth. He speaks truth. Talks in a way which is off handed and very honest. He prays as Pope Benedict. He thinks he is one of the great theologians weve had. One the greatest postconcilior intellects. One of the defining theologians of the second half the 20th century. And i think pope francis has unfamed affection and wrenchance for him. And they do get together. We know that because of the way in which he talks about it. I would say to Pope Emeritus Benedicts credit, we dont know much more about that relationship because Pope Benedict decide he has spoken his last public word, and when he said hes going to retire to a life of prayer, thats what hes done. And thats how he intends rose does he live on the papal grounds . He does. He lives in vatican city state. Rose so its easy it sure is. What i mean to say is he is not in any way commenting or acting as a shadow figure. I think Pope Emeritus Benedict is very aware of the fact that he with everything he does, he is set a precedent. Precedent. Right. And he has given, through his absence, he has given francis great freedom to chart his own course and set a new tone for the papacy. And theres this great respectfulness here in the relationship on both sides. Benedict is showing it by being quiet, and francis by being exuberant in his effectiveness. Rose he spoke out with respect to syria. Oh, yes. Rose does he want to play that kind of role on these great political issues of our time . I dont know if theres a role per se that pope francis rose certainly give voice. Gave what he considered to be moral voice to the issue of a military strike against syria saying dont do it. I think he does want to do that. I think he wants to call the world to its senses. I think he hes very conscious of his moral authority to go back to what matt said before. He doesnt do anything although he seems very off the cuff i dont think he does anything off the cuff. I think he reflects deeply about what hes going to do and then gives voice to the plan that he has conceived through testing. And goes forward with it. I do think he does want to play a role of i dont think he wants to play a political role. But i do think he wants to have a moral voice present in the world and i think he also, in all he did around the syria question. He wants to unite all religious voices. We saw that in his remarks in st. Peter square when they had the vigil for peace in syria. 100,000 people were there. This in itself was unprecedented. There had never been a vigil on the eve of the gulf wars. And he called us all to pray and fast on that day. You know, i hear Pope Benedict saying eye mean, francis. Its. A long week. Pope francis saying that this is what i see him doing in this interview is calling our attention to the radical nature of the gospel call. Particularly in his remarks on the syria question. He says, if we think that we are going to have peace anywhere, let alone syria, without want radical acts of love and forgiveness, which the gospel calls for, were dluld rose whats interesting about this, these are very, very straight, direct, precise questions. Uhhuh. Rose i read from the interview, what should be the role of women in the church . A big issue. I am wary of a solution that can be reduced to a find of female akiz mow because a woman has a different makeup than a man. But what i hear by role of women is often inspired by acheese mow. Women are anything deep questions that must be addressed. Church captain be herself without the women in her role. The woman is essential for the church. I say this because we must not confuse the function with the dignity. We must, therefore, investigate the further role of women. We must, there were, investigate further the role of women in the church. This is his hint that we are going to start thinking about these things but. They will not necessarily be the public debate t. Yeah, and ad. Rose you guys tell me. Hes inviting conversation, and deep conversation. Absolutely. And reflection. And inclusive. This is a man who made it clearly the wider going to your point about governance its wider the conversation, the deeper it is and stronger it is. Hes inviting that sort of conversation on this very divisive, up until this point, idea. And he said on the plane right back from buenos aires in the famous first famous interview, he said, you know, that john paul ii had defin fill closed the door to the ordination of of women through his papal pronouncements. But there are lots of ways in which women can be involved in the life and governance of the church that dont require ordination. And i think this pope knows that. So i would be surprised if we didnt see at some point in this papacy women in unpress demmed positions. I agree with you entirely. Tick he is inviting everyone to engage in a conversation about a theology of women. But i think hes also deeply aware of the fact that the ministry of women is present in the church and one of the great strengths but it has to be looked at and enriched even more. Rose what does church say to divorced and remarried people and homosexuals . In buenos arees i received letters who said they felt the church condemned them. The church does not want to do this. I say if a homosexual person is of goes goodwill and in search of god i am no one to judge. By saying, this i said what the catechism says religion has right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but god in creation has site us free. It is not possible to interfere spiritually. In the life of a person. Because a person, a man, a woman, a gay person, a straight person whatever a person is a person. A person is not an idea. A person is not a social construct. A person is not a collection of biological functions. A person is someone created in the image and likeness of god, and that is precious. The thing that we have not talked about, which is a huge, as they say, elephant in the room, is the terrible instances of the church and its. And abuse, especially of young people, innocents. Yes. Rose does he talk about this . Indirectly. Yes. Indirectly, but actually in a very powerful way. He says what he sees, pris his principal image of the church right now say Field Hospital after a battle and our priority is to heal the wounds. And he has this very charming bit where he says, when somebody comes to you who is seriously wounded, you dont ask them about their cholesterol levels. You know, you tend to and thats what we rose but the idea of abuse is not about cholesterol. I mean, thats about the soul of the church. Thats his point. A mortal wound on the person who was abused, and its a mortal wound, i think, for the church. Although he disappoint add