Choruses that i could sing. And i never felt like i was a brilliant songwriter. I felt like i knew how to make singles. Rose the narrowing race for the democratic nol nation nomination and a conversation with steve miller when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. From our studios captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. We begin this evening with politics, there is much talk about the republicans but the race for the democratic nomination has intensified as the two leading candidates Exchange Attacks on each other. Senator Bernie Sanders said that Hillary Clintons criticism of his stance on gun control and health care signals that her campaign is in trouble. Sanders took the lead in New Hampshire, according to an nbc and the wall street journal poll. He is also closing the gap in iowa. Joining me now from des moines is glenn thrush, the chief Political Correspondent for politico. In washington, Peter Nicholas is a the wall street Journal White House reporter. And here in new york amy chozick is a National Political reporter at the new york times. I am pleased to have all of them here on this program as we talk about the democratic race. So what is going on . What how do we val yait the socalled sanders surge. Right, so for awhile the clinton people said they expected polls to narrow. But i think in the past week you have seen a really jarring strategic change. She went from barely mentioning Bernie Sanders to really hitting him pretty hard. And every signal is that they are very nervous about this, that they could lose iowa and New Hampshire and that could send a ripple fek of losing donors and having to scramble. She could still capture the nomination with those setbacks but i think theyre really bracing for that. Rose and would it weaken, if it makes her appear weakened, would that maybe suggest other people could come in or it simply would be all the weight would be on Bernie Sanders . Well, i mean, there are a couple of schools of thought that the sustainment would establishment would stick with her no matter what or woulded establishment push for another democrat to get in the race. I dont think people would necessarily peel off to get behind Bernie Sanders the way they did with bar ak obama in 2008. To look for whether she would suffer back to back defeats in iowa and New Hampshire, that could scramble the race. She would still have something of a fire wall in South Carolina whose primary is later in february. But there is a large africanamerican vote that is typically loyal to her. But defeats in iowa and New Hampshire would be very troubling for her, a disturbing sign. And could entice some other candidates perhaps or some other politicians to think about that race. And could completely erode the idea that she is the inevitable frontrunner. Rose does that include joe biden. I done think you can rule it out. He suggested that he is regrets having not gotten in. And he is less than enthusiastic about her candidacy based on some recent interviews hes done. Its not good. But shes got sort of a counterargument she can make. I will play devils advocate here. New hampshire is right next door to vermont, sanders was supposed to win that anyway. Iowa as we know is the fifth whitest state in the country and has a caucus system that isnt necessarily representative of the larger electorate. She then has nevada which has a fairly substantial latino population where she is looking fairly strong. And then you have South Carolina which will be very hard for Bernie Sanders. Now i understand there would be a big Momentum Shift but you cant think about her race in isolation. You have to think about what is going on in the republican side. If donald trump wins any of the firs two primaries, i think that changes the fundamental psychology of the average democratic voter and feeds into her argument that she is the only one with the strength to be able to fight those guys. And you know, i think she will be weakened, but i think she could potentially survive losing both of those. Rose is donald trump, would democratic voters a powerful threat, so the mention of his name makes you even deeper feel the need to have a strong democratic candidate . The same kind of disenchantment with washington politics as usual that is fueling the donald trump rise is also in some sense on the democratic side, ihink is behind this berny sanders bounce that weve seen. As recently as october, hillary looked like she had the nomination sewn up. A strong debate performance. She did very well in her 11 hour performance before the benghazi committee. And it just, what we are seeing on the democratic electorate though is some sense that they dont want to just ratify their clinton candidacy. They want to see a real race, a contest. They like bernies bash the billionaires populist message. And clinton seems like a centrist establishment mainstream figure whose message may be doesnt fit the gliet guise at this moment. Rose and too close to wall street. Yeah. Bought and paid for by waws wawses is what some of the people i talked to in iowa suggest. Rose is there generally in the country a sense of the Democratic Party shifting left . And seeing not only in the politics on the campaign trail but also in terms of how the president now expresses himself. I mean iowa is certainly right for an insurgent candidacy and weve seen that in many elections in the past. But i also think that the party has shifted to the left and Hillary Clinton was adjusting her positions as such, even before Bernie Sanders was a threat. I think she needed to shore up Union Support to close out biden. And so she was speaking out. Rose and to wrap up Elizabeth Warren. Exactly. You could say the warren wing of the party is sort of the animating force in the primary. Certainly Bernie Sanders has pushed her slightly. But the party has moved even to the left of where bar ak obama is on some of the issues. Look at the transpacific partnership, his trade deal. Rose you think its unlikely that no matter how well bernie does in the first two primaries, iowa and New Hampshire, that she has a fire wall and just forget all this talk, were simply we are just looking for a story . No, i dont think were just looking for a story. Two points here. First and fore most, she has never been a very good candidate. And were seeing that again, right snr particularly in a state like iowa which really feeds on enthusiasm. I have gone to a couple events in the last few days. Her events, berny sanders events. He has a really simple understandable pitch. Her stump speech keeps getting longer and longer. Any time things go wrong she throws another program on to the pielt it is a crazy onehour quilt of different programs. You have people nodding off in the audience. She just does not have a clear message. But i do think she has this. The main thrust of the Democratic Party, particularly in 2012,what people dont realize about the 2012 election, as significant as 08ee, it really represented latinos and african americans. The obama machine maximizing turnout. Hillary clinton winning South Carolina by a substantial margin would be very important and this is a party right now in terms of the base that is far more about those voters than about white mid western voters. I wonder if this week or so Hillary Clinton is displaying in the primaries if it does not bode well for her in a general election, glenn. Because it does significant fie, as you point out, some weaknesses that she has as a candidate. And whether she might have a problem mobilizing voters and spiking turnout in a general election. And i think that if, lets face facts. Bernie sanders is a 74 year old democratic socialist. He was an obscure senator from vermont. His name recognition is flex to nothing and he is you were pushing Hillary Clinton one of the most familiar us people on the planet hard in New Hampshire and iowa. Why is that happening. You have to ask yourself and does that bode well for the Democratic Party in a general election. Rose lets answer that question. Why is that happening . I would just say to peters point that a hard fought primary could make her a better candidate in the general election. By the time she was losing to obama, that was the best. And we were on the campaign trail together. We finally saw her become a pretty good candidate. Rose when it was too late to win. Exactly. She started to not care. She started to engage with the press more. And so a hard fought primary i think could be good for her when she is entering the general. Rose is it fair to say that this early Hillary Clinton did not learn the lessons of 20089 at all . I think she learned the logistical lessons. But i think she is a more stilted, removed and candidate than in 08ee. In 08ee she had just run a Senate Reelection campaign and was really much more in the mix with voters. She was more accustomed to it i am seeing some real transation transitional issues from her going from foggy bottom out into, you know, mason city. She really doesnt seem to have the same sort of feel for the electorate that she had in some of those later primaries. Rose peter, do you agree with that . I think i do, yes. As i do think hes got a point here. The guest of it is that she is its something that is always flom oxed her. She is not a natural campaigner. She is not her husband. She is always campaign compared to that high standard. She comes off as awkward, some what formal. I was listening to her at a Candidate Forum the other day in des moines, the brown and black forum where she was asked about would you deport children who are in the country illegally. And her answer was along the lines of i would provide them due process. Well, were talking about children. And yes, that answer is probably a safe and conventional and responsible answer, but is it the kind of answer that is really memorable . In ways that a bernee sanders answer is memorable. I am not so sure. I think that is what glen is speaking to. I would also say that i think she overcorrected some things from 2008. For instance she got criticized for having a campaign filled with old clinton cronies who had been around. So she fills her campaign with brand new people, obama people, a mix of other people without dont have a relationship with her. And therefore cannot push back like some of the old time. Rose does that include her campaign manager. Yeah, shes of course not as close to him. Im not saying 2008 was perfect but in some places she sort of overcorrected. That is a great point. What amy is talking about, the distance between hillary and her brain trust now, now granted, last time it was way too much. She would call people up in the middle of the night and scream at them. Now you have a situation where you have Major Players on her campaign who do not communicate with her regularly. And to some extent that imposes a discipline that wasnt there in 08ee but it also gives it a bloodless mechanical quality. She never talked about being a woman. Now she is running as the first grandmother. You also see overcorrecting in a lot of ways. Rose what separates the two of them . Iowa . Not in terms of numbers but in terms of issues. Clinton pointed to the messaging. Bernie sanders is a very viseral income inequality, end crony capital im, were going to take back our economy. And she goes through a laundry list of issues like autism, Prescription Drug prices, really kind of microissues that she hears from voters, they care about. Rose joe biden said to me this morning on cbs this morning, he said Bernie Sanders has been making this speech for 30 years. I think one thing that separates them, charlie, is this question of authenticity. I think it is what amy and glenn are touching on. Polls consistently show that people dont see her as honest and straight forward. They dont see her as a real cham champion of middle clation interests. That shurting her. I was at an event with Bernie Sandrs where a 28 year old man got up and talked about that he is carrying 98,000 in student loan debt, half his paycheck goes to student loans. Bernie asked him to stand up and address the crowd. It was a real connection. The pan got emotionalment and he turned and urged the crowd to vote for bernie. It is this kind of thing that you dont necessarily see at a Hillary Clinton raleigh. Rose where is he in the campaign, bill clinton. We are starting to see him. He is out on the trail more. He is a sur gat for her. He has been in iowa, New Hampshire, chelsea chin ton is out. Little wistful, nostalgic. Ds a he talks about his presidency, he vowjs for hillary, goes through autobiographical tales but his speeches have had a little me anderring quality to them. He talks about Different Things he read in the newspaper and his reaction to them. You know, its sort of like a little walk down memory lane. But i thought a really Interesting Development is Chelsea Clinton by the way who wouldnt talk to news 2008. I had this great encounter when she came out on the trail where she said i dont talk to the press. She said you are all grown up now, why not. But a couple of days ago she emerged as a with a baby bump and emerged as a really with a really sharp attack on Bernie Sanders and his healthcare plan. That is an interesting thing. You know, the point is back in 08ee i remember and amy and peter can address this too. I remember hillary having this constellation of sur gats who were really willing to go to battle for her. It is interesting that her daughter now has to sortd of step into the fray and make this argument. I want to know where all these sur gats are for hillary. Rose where do you think they are . They dont want to get hit by the Bernie Sanders bus, a lot of democrats. I also wonder if there is not a risk in the strategy, if there is not going to be a backlash. Bernie sporpters are pretty protective of him. Im not sure they will be that enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton and Chelsea Clinton and the Clinton Campaign team attacking him in this way. They could alienate the liberal wing of the party. Hillary wants these voters. She is trying to woo them. So this strategy, i think, is a tricky one. And i see why shes doing it. Because the poll numbers arent looking good but there is a possible backlash here. Peter made the point about authenticity. If she starts attacking him on these issues, she is going to look like a typical politician and sort of everything that the antiestablishment liberal wing doesnt like about the clintons. Rose yeah. Here is what you said. The recipe for a sanders upset in iowa calls for a large turnout of voters under 45 and those at the lower end of the economic scale. Appealing to their anger at wall street, the influential of money and politics and hollowing out of the working class. That is what he has got to do, to get those voters out. Absolutely. The generational gap is really stark. Rose my impression is that what she had done between 2008 and 2015, 16, is put together a group of people who knew how to reach those voters. The candidate is a candidate. And also the decadeslong in the public eye and in washington, cant change that. And so you know, young people dont see her as sort of new and fresh. And i did a lot of reporting about young women, not being so excited about the first female president. You talk to 60 year old bim who are really excited about hillary and breaking the Glass Ceiling and younger women are not motivated by that. They say we will have a woman eventually, why does it have to be her. It is an interesting dynamic. It is strikingt these hillary events. I was at an event at Iowa State University yesterday. And there was a young mother with a baby and the baby cried and people looked around. They didnt know what it was. There is scus not a lot of young people at these rallies. I mean, you know, like 75, 80 of these folks are over 60 years old and some in their 90s, you know. Rose the donald trump phenomenon, is that a deep and pervasive dominant theme of this campaign or is it just the Republican Campaign because you have people in that party who are tired of not only democrats and not only the establishment and not only washington, but their own party establishment. Some of the most Interesting Data ive seen on voters is the overlap between trump spoarts and Bernie Sanders supporters. Tell me about that. That there is a White Working Class con tin gent that is supportive of both of their issues, that are motivating voters to be drawn to both candidates on sort of opposite side of the spec