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The following prerecorded program is sponsored by family life a Little Rock Arkansas when someone you love turns away from you how should you respond Dave Harvey says you need to respond with rugged love. Rugged love his courageous enough to enforce consequences and so the woman in the man there sitting at the table and she saying well you know I'm done Ahmadi here but I have these expectations that you know that we're going to share the bank account and you're going to fund some of this and that I'm going to be able to maybe live here for a while and part of what love does is love recognises that there can be a redemptive force in consequences this is family life today for Tuesday October 10th Our host is the president a family left on this rainy I'm. How can we practice rugged love with the wayward souls in our lives we'll explore that today Stay with us. And welcome to family life today thanks for joining us like you does have had the opportunity to sit down with somebody who is. Headed in the wrong direction with their marriage they are headed out rather than headed in and they instead of wanting to fix things and pursue oneness they want to move away and one of the things I've tried to do in those moments is just a little reality check and say I want to take you out to 5 years from now I'd like to visit where the path you're going is likely to lead based on where it's let other people. And to say here's what's coming up for you a wedding in the future where your daughter doesn't want you to walk her down the aisle because of the hurt that occurred from this aura and event with the extended family holiday events where you're not invited or where you get Christmas afternoon for a few hours rather than being with the grandkids just trying to paint a picture of the fact that the path you're on in the moment may feel like a path of happiness but there's better fruit attached to that you know what you're talking about Bob is a prodigal we typically think of prodigals being children who break out of the the family unit and go so wild seeds but you're really talking about a larger group of people even within the Christian community that we all know from time to time who want to leave that which they're responsible for and we have a couple of pastors with us who have faced this situation repeatedly together they have more than 50 years passed during the flock of God Paul Gilbert and Dave Harvey join us on family life today walking back it's great to be here thanks so much they've written a book called letting go which is rugged love for wayward souls and it's all about how do you deal with a product how do you deal with someone who has headed off for what Bob described a rugged rugged life and you guys say you've got to you've got to meet a rugged life with a rugged love that has teeth explain what you mean by love with teeth yeah I think we 1st have to appreciate that there is a tension that somebody who loves the way we're person has to live in and that is that you have this person who wants to do the right thing once to obey God wants to apply the Scriptures wants to love them and will do almost anything. Right to see their loved one restored to right place and in a position where they're moving in the right direction and then on the other side you have this this wayward person who is content to do nothing who has made no investment in the relationship who has no incentive to move forward and not only that but the mindset that they're in the wayward mindset doesn't respect the fear or the neediness that it perceives in the person who's loving them and so you have this set up where most people as they're trying to actually help a loved one are perpetuating the problem because of their They're leading or living loving out of their fear and they get too soft with them they actually instead of bringing a tough love a love that has teeth instead because they don't know what to say they say nothing or they try to come alongside them and say well you know I'll just long suffer with you and say nothing about the wrong choices they're making I think part of it is as we're defining rugged love that we're also defining what love isn't and so often times when parents or a spouse is moved to sort of rescue their wayward person from the consequences of their choices or they're functioning in an over responsible way or they're appeasing or they are their entitling all those things can feel in the moment like it's love but it actually has the opposite effect in helping people think through what it means to love biblically to have as they've said love with teeth a fully orbed love you know a love that desires to see God's best happen for them I have to be honest sometimes I may not want to confront a prodigal because I fear losing the relationship or I. Fear what will happen if they don't heed my my counsel or I don't like the way I feel when they become upset and so it's really a self protective measure and while it feels loving In fact it's it's empowering it's enabling that wayward person towards a destructive patterns which is embracing a lie it's embracing the lie that says that if I cooperate if I accommodate it somehow that display of what I'm calling love is going to help them and move them in a good direction and that's where at the very bottom of this we have to drive a stake that says that that love in the biblical sense Love does not enable sinful behavior and anytime that love begins to enable sinful behavior we start moving away we're person away from God and not toward God and that's why a parent is set up to be an enabler with a child very much because a child as someone has said is a parent's heart walking around outside their body and to hurt that child hurts the parent and so the parent thinks by letting the child hit the wall and then picking him up taking him out of a difficult situation and not confronting the behavior full law and they think at that point that's really love when in essence it may be that it's time to draw some boundaries some really strict boundaries and how you're going to relate to one another going forward Ok so let me give you a couple of scenarios and you tell me what the rugged love kind of response would be in these scenarios husband and wife or are having dinner he knows that their relationship has been strained there's been a distance it's been growing for a while they're out to dinner she looks up at him and she says. I think it's time we talk about what's really going on she says I I don't love you anymore that I've felt this way for a long time. I'm I don't want to be married to you anymore he says or somebody else she doesn't want to admit it but there is somebody else she says well I have met someone. In that moment here's this this guy who would say I've let a lot slide in my marriage we shouldn't gotten to this point but I want to respond rightly I want to respond in a Godly way to what my wife is saying to me in this moment what I'm feeling is just get out of here or the hurt the betrayal or the the anger or I'll do anything to save our marriage. Are either of those the right response before I we kind of die then a death I think one thing we have to talk about is that all these things are contextual there's a lot of things that are there very real that are at play you know are these professing Christians are they in a local body do they have Christian friends around them right and so I think there's no one size fits all answer to that scenario you've got to know a whole lot more of the background right you have a lancer well but I do think there's probably certain things that are really important and as much as there's an immediate personal betrayal that's felt I think that a singular goal at that point is to really at begin asking questions how do you think God sees this you know what do you believe God would would have as the as the design and goal of our marriage as you are making this decision are you bringing God's word to bear in this at all who have you talked to about this is this person know what a Christian as and willingly doesn't want to go there doesn't want to submit their life what we're really saying is that what is showing up as betrayal or waywardness is really a profound spiritual issue and the bigger issue has to do with this person's relationship with God that it does with how that's being felt in our circle right and the reason we're calling it rugged love is not because it's going to feel good in fact there's a lot about how we're defining this that's totally counterintuitive but because it's a way to apply scripture in some of those very complicated situations so for instance you know that the definition that we give is the 1st one is that rugged love is strong enough to face evil so there's a lot of guys back to your illustration that might sit across from the wife and just say you know that's not important what's important is that I love you and we don't even need to worry about that I just want as if it did. Didn't happen is if we can live in denial as if we can just ignore that and ignore some of the things she sang but a real Biblical love a love that is rugged is strong enough to face evil and then let me just give you a 2nd one because it'll help you to understand some of the applications another facet of this rugged love is to nation is enough to do good so you brings good into play and the tenacity that's required for somebody it's being continually sinned against to say I'm going to demonstrate a love that even though I know I'm being sinned against I'm going to meet that with mercy I'm going to meet that with goodness I'm going to meet with some action of love and I think that when they begin to take those steps they're beginning to work with a more biblical more rugged love and when you talk about the tenacity to do good you're talking about something more than I'm going to send her flowers tomorrow and and hopefully will her back with that you're talking about the kind of love that says I'm going to put your interest your good ahead of my own and I'm going to sacrifice so that ultimately you can be restored in your relationship with God and hopefully restored your relationship with me and I'll sacrifice to make that happen another way to think about this and in just pressing into this rugged love idea and in the same illustration is rugged love his courageous enough to enforce consequences and so back to the woman in the man in there sitting at the table and she's saying well you know I'm done Ahmadi here but I have these expectations that we're going to share the bank account and you're going to fund some of this and that I'm going to be able to maybe live here for a while and and you'll be able to kind of you know help me on my way and there may be good things to do to be a blessing to her but part of what love does is love recognizes that there can be a redemption. Force in consequences and that it when we read scripture God often uses consequences as a kind of tutorial he'll let the people of Israel get on into Egypt he'll let Babylon take them captive and he'll let out of an evil leave the garden and live east of Eden because he's got a bigger plan and he knows that even when the prodigal son leaves home with his inheritance that there's something far out there where the world can tutor them in a way that maybe the parents or maybe the husband just can't get to that it did take the prodigal eating corn cobs in the pigsty before he woke up and went What have I doing right yeah it's an amazing descent for the prodigal but the problem is as we talk about a marriage relationship usually by the time the couple have arrived at this point where the other person announces I'm outta here at that point that heart is so hardened and so unresponsive to truth that even the most difficult of consequences doesn't wake them up what would you say to the spouse who's trying to hang in there on behalf of the marriage at that point because they may be dealing with the person who has truly become a fool yeah I had dinner with a friend last night whose wife left him some 20 years ago and you can even imagine the father in the prodigal son parable standing on the road even as he's released his son to go to the distant country there's a sense that you get that there's an expectancy there's a prayerful ness there's a hopefulness trusting God straining to the horizon and I think that you're my friend talked about for 15 years he was out there on the road looking making a path of vailable back towards the marriage where his ex-wife now could repent. And the reality is it never happened and he had to move on with his life what we don't want to do is to say hey this is a formula if you just follow this formula your prodigals going to come running back down the road how long did the father have to stand on the road I mean a distant country and you know we're talking months we're talking years and I think that's important because we can become disillusioned if we put this into an American ice time schedule if I do this is going to happen by that such and such time well and Dave there's a reason you titled the book letting go talk about what it is that we need to let go well that the letting go concept recognizes that there that there needs to be a rugged love and there needs to be a rugged love that includes praying boldly there needs to be a rugged love that includes being resilient enough to forgive and and to be sturdy enough to be patient and and so there are all these kind of aggressively loving things where we're doing so that we're not just cutting them off the guy who's sitting at the tables not just saying well I'm divorcing you then but there's a there's a patients there's a love there's a prayerful n'est there's a process. But over time one begins to realize that there is an entrenched selfishness that has taken hold of this person and that all of the process all of the praying the community the pastors the the different things that have been done in order to serve them does not appear to be moving them forward and simply remaining in the same place is not bearing any fruit. And so we introduced the idea of sometimes God lets us go in other words sometimes God releases us to go ahead and move forward and to experience the life that we're clawing after that we might be edible to experience the fruit of the choices the consequences of the decisions because God is big enough to be in them in to use them to turn us around in one of the stories that we talk about of the book that's real and I and I can share it openly because this couple's give us permission and they have testified publicly about this but a young couple had a young child and the husband had an addiction to alcohol they had dealt with this issue over a number of years and they had reached a point where the wife really felt like he was clean and he was living a transparent life only to discover that in fact he had had a secret bank account a secret credit card have been just living kind of a secret life related to substance abuse she came to a point of realizing simply restarting the cycle over again and with apologies and I'll never do it again that wasn't going to take them where they needed to be and so she had to make a very very difficult decision that she was going to move back in with her parents with this child while her husband under care from the church demonstrated that he was able to keep and hold a job he was able to go through counseling and rehabilitation and then at the same time keeping the door open that God could change his heart and if God did that she would be willing to receive him and you know by God's grace that happened but it did not happen quickly I mean it happened over the course of weeks and months and it was agonizing but at the same time she realized if I don't release him now. We may never have an open honest transparent loving relationship because part of that story was that they had gone through several occasions prior where something was I discovered and but she forgave she's really moved on they thought Ok This time it's going to be different and of course he was apologetic but she eventually realized you know what this arrangement is not only unhelpful but it it's anchoring it's in trenching him into these patterns and so we have to have a hard reset and I have to let him go they were putting Band-Aids over wounds that needed to be cauterized Absolutely and it wasn't until she said you know cauterization is hard and painful but it's the only way for this wound to be fully healed and a key phrase you used as you describe that story was that the church in gauged with her and gave her I think what I heard you saying the courage to establish the boundaries then the protection to protect her as she waited on her husband to see if he would make good on his promises and then the a part of the restoration if an