witnesses on substance all they're left with is posturing during their five minute rejoinder. so they will be in a tough position but it's one of their own making. >> and the president's own lawyers will have the right to question their own witnesses. >> they will. but as joyce said, if your defense is he didn't do it, i'm not sure what questions they're going to ask. they will try some of the smears like perhaps were made against lieutenant colonel vindman, but my guess is they'll just make a bunch of speeches appealing to trump's voter, appealing to trump's base. i think it will be a very fact-finding exercise on one side and a political exercise on the other side. >> ron klain, joyce vance, thank you both for joining the discussion. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> ezra klein will get tonight's last word on this historic day as the impeachment. of donald trump is finally under way. inally under way.