Theyre saying that a federal grand jury in washington, d. C. Today approved the first charges in the investigation thats being led by the special counsel by mueller. Now, we dont know what the charges are. The charges are apparently still sealed under orders of a federal judge. We dont know who the charges are against and we dont even know what the charges are. We dont have any reason to believe any of they will have been notified of the fact that they have been charged, if in fact these charges are still under seal. So the headline is very provocative. We know very little beyond that. Other than prosecutors associated with the Mueller Investigation were seen entering the room where the grand jury meets in d. C. , in the federal courthouse if d. C. Other than the attorneys being spotted in that room, which has happened before. We have no corroborating information about whether or not this is true. So obviously, this is a very provocative prospect. Were keeping an eye for additional reporting. Lots of News Organizations are working on their own approach to the story. Ill tell you as somebody who has covered the russian story probably more extensively than anyone in cable news, ill just tell you that there have been lots and lots and lots of rumors that this was about to happen. And there have been lots of sort of credible, Single Source reports, unconfirmed Single Source reports that charges were imminent from muellers investigators. You follow all that. Until you have multiple credible sources, it is not reportable. Cnn says it is reportable at this point. Nobody else does. If theyre right, this is first reported multiple source account that these charges may happen. Theres no reason to speculate further. How should we understand the significance of this if this is proven out. Im really glad you are here for this. We dont know. Nbc news has not confirmed this. But as a Law Enforcement professional, tell us what this means. A federal grand jury in washington, d. C. Approved the first charges in the investigation being led by mueller. Tell us about the work of a grand jury and what it means to say that a grand jury has approved charges. Typically what happens in a grand jurys investigation, they hear evidence. It could be a little case where they hear it for one day or a big case, like the one were talking about where they hear testimony. And then at some point, the prosecutor makes a decision to seek or decline to seek an indictment. They think theyve gotten to the point where they have probable cause to go forward. The pros clurt draft a proceedsed on indictment. Present it to the grand jury to discuss the law and the elements of the offenses. Answer any questions and then leave the room and the grand jury on deliberate among themselves and make a decision whether they approve or decline to approve. They call it issuing a true bill or no true bill. And it sounds like in this report is accurate tlergs did issue a true bill. At that point thats not an adversarial process. Nobody is making the case that they shouldnt approve it. This is between prosecutor and the grand jury without any intervention from someone who might be representing the target of the proposed indictment. Thats right. And thats why the defendant is still presumed innocent. They have not had the chance to cross examine witnesses, confront accusers, or do all the things they have at trial. It has been very one sided. And the standard is not guilt beyond reasonable doubt but probable cause. You sometimes hear this complaint that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich before a grand jury. I dont think thats true. Not the least of which because it is a strange metaphor but because, there is an obligation under doj ethics rules to present the grand jury with significant exculpatory information. Does Robert Mueller over his years in Law Enforcement in the Justice Department, and the fbi, does he have a particular reputation in terms of how aggressive he might be about charging people . Is he known for approaching these things any particular way . I would say the one thing hes known for is approaching investigations with a sense of urgency. I think were seeing that here. To have charges filed now some of the people may think this is not very quick. It seems very quick to me. It is his reputation to work very hard. To drive his people very hard. To leave no stone unturned. According to cnns report, this is not confirmed by nbc, the charges are still sealed under orders from a federal judge. What would it mean for the grand jury, as you describe, to have approved a proposed sbimt but then for it to be sealed. Why is that done . Sealing is fairly common at the stage when you have an indictment that is issued, approved, as it may have been. The reason is that Law Enforcement kind of wants its ducks in a row before they go out and arrest the defendant or even notify him. It may be they dont arrest the defendant because theyve worked out a relationship with his or her defense attorney, to bring them in to appear on the case. It is late on a friday afternoon. They want to keep it a secret so at a moment of their choosing, they can either inform the defendant or they can surprise them with an arrest first thing monday morning, tuesday morning. Can charges like this be sealed indefinitely . It can be sealed for some time. Sometimes there are strategic reasons to seal an indictment for a longer period of time. You may want to arrest other people that youre continuing to investigate and you dont want to alert them that someone else has been charged. I could be that someone is a fugitive. You dont want to alert them in the meantime while you look for them. At some point, it is considered against their rights. Certainly the charge from the time it is committed. My guess is in this case, theyre sealing it for some period of time so they can effectuate an arrest plan or an appearance in court. Let me ask you an admittedly dumb question about this. Im thinking about the treatment by the special counsel thus far of Paul Manafort in particular. Picking the lock and they find out when hes there. They told Paul Manafort, expect to be indicted. We have no reason to think if there are charges, that they have anything to do with manafort. That they seal to have taken to that one figure in the case. Is it possible you would bring a proposed indictment, you would seal the indictment and you would do that basically as a form of pressure on the target. Pressure on a suspect. Not necessarily because the end game is to put that person in jail but because you want to scare the bejesus out of that person. I think it was not so much scare tactics as necessary steps in the investigation. In telling someone theyre a target of the vegts, it just puts them on notice. If you want to cooperate, now is the time. Maybe you can talk us out of it if you can provide us information. I think you have to show a judge that you have a reason for that. There was some legitimate concern. The deleting of a document saved on a cell phone, for example. That would be done in the few minutes it takes for a nauk and the answer of a door. I think it seems unlikely they would file it just to scare somebody. I think if theres an indictment, they would share it. I think they will use it to get cooperation against more egregious offenders but it remains to be seen who the defendant or defendants are. Let me ask you one last question. Ill ask to you stay with us and talk about it in a moment. Before i let you go, you did mention that you feel like, in your opinion, this feels quick to you . This feels like it might have been faster than you are expecting there could be charges . An indictment in this case . Can i ask why you said that . It seems like psalm complex case. The big picture about anything between russia and the Trump Campaign. It seems like such an enormous case that it could take many, many months to get to the bottom of it. But even if it is a charge against manafort or flynn or someone else. It seems there is so much new news with so much complex issues. It seals like it would take a very long time. But Robert Mueller does have a reputation for working with urgency and he has 16 top notch prosecutors. Im sure theyre working days, nights, and weekends to get this done. Thank you very much. I would love for to you stick with us. I have a feeling we have a lot more to talk about. I want to bring into the conversation, matthew miller. The former spokesperson. Youve heard the discussion that i just had with barbara mcquaid. Youve seen this reporting. I need to underscore that nbc news has not confirmed this tonight. They said theyre citing two sources familiar with it and theyre saying the first charges have been brought. We dont know what they are. Let me ask your top line. This suppose bob mueller is working quickly. There are a lot of people that thought he might pursue the investigation into months. Maybe a report to congress about fwakss president that wouldnt result in criminal charges. At least one indictment, maybe more than one set of indictments early in the case. This does not mean that we are at the end of the investigation. I think i think the first seventh indictments. There could be more to come. From a doj perspective. Part of the reporting that cnn has done which is more background rather than something had, some new fact they dug up. The way theyre characterizing the report. The Deputy Attorney general, Rob Rosenstein who is overseeing all matters related to this, as the person overseeing the Mueller Investigation, would he have had to see it . Would he have had to be infwormd these proposed charges for the Mueller Investigation to go this far . Technically, he would have to see the indictment. It would be up to the relationship that he and mueller worked out under the terms of the appointment. The document itself, it is very narrow, it sets it up. It doesnt set tim working relationship that they would have. I would expect mueller would have informed him about this. Would have briefed him on who he plans to indict. I dont know if he would brief him on what hes done. The real concern thats people have raised about rosensteins independence. I think mueller might be careful of how much detail he does share. Matt, on the issue of the political opposition that the Mueller Investigation, that the congressional russia investigations have run into. One of the things that has been discussed is whether the mueller budget request, the actual funding that needs to in some ways go through congress, to keep it going. Whether that might be a point of leverage that republicans in the white house could use against the Mueller Investigation. And given the timing of when that started. When he was put in charge of this probe about, six months ago, maybe that question was starting to come due. I want to know what your reaction is to that recent reporting of the concerns by people in the investigation. I think its clear that everyone from the president to his allies in congress to the conservative media have been orchestrating a special drum beat. I think it is always showing a bit of nervousness about where it might go, what he might find. And what changes now. If indictments are unveiled next week, it is not just interfering with a criminal investigation but an investigation that a grand jury has found probable causes to charge someone criminally. It becomes a question of really, it is obviously not obstruction of justice for congress to do that. It becomes blocking an investigation that has go borne fruit. And it becomes an even more questionable activity after hes filed charges than it was before. One last question for you. One of the stories that we were planning on leading with tonight, before this news broke, was the interesting and unexpected news out of the district of virginia. Dana who has played a number of standin roles, being brought in as acting attorney general, he is now acting assistant attorney general and National Security matters, he announced his resignation today. That may be a totally separate matter from this. It may be absolutely unrelated. There has been some speculation that because of the job he had in trump administration, particularly being the person at d. O. J. Who james comey was reporting to during that contested time that jim comey has said the president was pressuring him on the russia investigation, there is been some speculation that maybe he may end up being a witness in part of this investigation. Maybe that has something to do with him stepping down today. Do you have any thoughts on that matter . I dont know if it is true that hell be a witness. I talked to someone today who said they talked to dana as recently as several days ago. All they could talk about was how eager he was. Hes been the attorney general, to be confirmed so coretake his job in the Eastern District of virginia. What that says to me is, he did not just decide two days later, after having that conversation the resign. That he was forced out of the trump administration. We dont know the answer to that. Whether it has anything to do with the Mueller Investigation. But the timing has been, i think, a little curious with the sudden departure of the department. To underscore what you said, that was a conversation that he had a couple days ago in which he did not express any desire, in fact, expressed enthusiasm about continuing in the Eastern District of virginia. And then today, mysteriously, at least, surprisingly, he resigned. Exactly. I think you can draw that wasnt a resignation completely of his own volition. Fascinating. Doj spokesperson. Thank you for being with us. I want to bring into the conversation now, another former u. S. Attorney, paul fishman who was the u. S. Attorney representing the great state of new jersey. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me back. Let me underscore that this is news that has not been confirmed by nbc. This is one News Organization that is reporting that charges, the first criminal charges have been filed in the Mueller Investigation. We dont know what they are. This is unconfirmed news but cnn is reporting. I know youre familiar with what cnn is reporting. Let me ask you your top line response to it. Well, so obviously, rachel, when we talk about this investigation, it is not just one investigation. There are multiple parts and lots of moving pieces. The manafort piece, the flynn piece, the potential obstruction of justice, the collusion with the russians. And it looks from the team that bob mueller has assembled, that he has different groups working on the investigation. It seems like one particular piece of that investigation has gotten to a place where mueller is comfortable returning charges against at least one person. Cnn reporting is correct. It doesnt mean that it is correct. He has gotten to a place, the reports are true where he is comfortable, asking the groog indict, knowing that he shouldnt do that unless he has sufficient evidence to convict. In terms of how this is being handled, if the cnn reporting is accurate, if the charges are sealed, cnn reports, plans were prepared today for anybody charged to be taken into custody as soon as monday. We just got an explanation for barbara mcquaid, your form he colleague in misch, about what it means for a judge to have sealed these charges. What is your take on the decision to seal them . The possibility that they would be unsealed on monday . And the question of whether or not attorneys for the targets of this reported indictment will be notified . I think all of those things are possible. What it means the majority of the grand jury has voted the person should be charged. And then the indictment the presented to the judge and it is filed on the docket of the court. If they believe it was necessary to seal the indictment right away, they can ask the judge to do that. Theres always a reason the prosecutors would give to a judge. Styles as barb said earlier on your show, they want the element of surprise for arrest. Sometimes it is because the investigation is continuing and they dont want to unseal at the moment. Sometimes they havent had a chance to tell the lawyer, because theyve been having a dialogue over a period of weeks or months, they think out of fairness, they would like the opportunity to do that before it becomes a matter of public record. In terms of of a question i asked barbara mcquaid, is it possible these are charges that will remain sealed for a long time . Is it being used as leverage against somebody in this investigation who is maybe a smaller fish . Who theyre trying to pressure into talking about stuff they havent been willing to talk to investigators about . In my experience, somebody like bob mueller gets to a place where he is ready to indict. A conversation would ensue between him and somebody on his staff. The lawyer or lawyers representing the target of the investigation saying heres a copy of the indictment. It is time to come to the table. Typically if the person says no, indict me, thats what happens. The person will be arrested or given an opportunity to voluntarily appear in the courtroom to answer the charges and enter a plea of not guilty. What we dont know, is whether on monday, well have a lot more information. If the story is true, it is possible somebody could be arrested over the weekend or on monday morning. Its possible on monday, bob mueller or somebody else could have a press conference or issue a press release announcing the indictments and the appearance in court will follow by some number of days. I just dont know. One last dumb question for you. If there are people who know they might potentially be indicted in this investigation, and theyve just heard theres a sealed indictment sirgts possible people could flee the country this weekend . My guess is if bob mueller and his team thought anyone might flee this weekend, they probably would have taken them into custody today or over the weekend the pre sprenlt possibility. I think thats unlikely under a circumstance like this. Particularly when people have known for a while their conduct is being examined. Paul fishman from the great state of new jersey. Thank you for joining us on short notice. So again, this is news that is not confirmed by nbc news or any other News Organization. But cnn is reporting the fi