The data says we dont have equal protection under the law. So is it inexcusable if some police not all, not even most feel they are above being questioned. We must really have peace and come together to show the world who we are. Thanks for watching. Im al sharpton. Hardball starts right now. Calling in the guard. This is hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. Tonight, all roads lead to ferguson. The Missouri National guard is there. So is the group black lawyers for justice, and the nation of islam. Attorney general eric holder is headed there wednesday. What will come of this National Collision of emotion and demand . Something better . A better chance at criminal justice regarding the death of Michael Brown . A better chance for a wider
social justice between the deprived communities of this land and the wider america . Will the Police Officer be dealt with in jut . Will the cries of the Ferguson Community for justice be heard and satisfied . Will there be peace as those who demand justice here await it . Thats the question on the streets of ferguson tonight as the National Guard defends the police against a repeat of last nights chaos. On sunday night shots were fired at authorities. Molotov cocktails were thrown at a Police Command center. Looters targeted shops and restaurants. Employees at one local mcdonalds hid in a storage room after the restaurant was overrun by a crowd. The Police Responded by firing teargas, smoke canisters and rubber bullets into the crowds. Hundreds of officers were deployed in heavy duty riot gear. Several journalists were threatened physically by police. Tonight, thats the question. Governor nixon declared a state of emergency and has ordered in
the National Guard. Community activists are organizing their own security forces. Late today president obama announced that attorney general eric holder will travel to ferguson wednesday to meet with investigators and other community leaders. The president has again called for an end to the violence. We have all seen images oh of protesters and Law Enforcement in the streets. Its clear that the vast majority of people are peacefully protesting. Whats also clear is that a small minority of individuals are not. I understand the passion and the anger that arises over the death of Michael Brown. Giving into anger by looting or carrying guns and even attacking the police only serves to raise tensions and stir chaos. It undermines rather than advancing justice. Nbcs craig melvin is on the ground in ferguson. Its 7 00 eastern. What do you see coming out there . What do you see now . I think weve got a live look thousand for you, chris. There is a march right now. This has become customary about this time every night. This is the main drag here in ferguson. We are literally a block or two away from where the shooting happened. We have seen this crowd grow considerably over the past hour, hour and a half, two hours or so. So far i can tell you that the protest itself, the march itself has been peaceful. There was an incident i would say maybe 30 or 45 minutes ago. We were about a block down in front of the mcdonalds. This has been the epicenter for a lot of the action here. That mcdonalds, we should note, by the way, is closed. It has been closed for several hours. Businesses on both sides boarded
up. They have been vandalized as have dozens of businesses on this street. We were in front of the mcdonalds because we were told around 5 00 there would be a meeting where they were going to essentially organize a peaceful protest. We expected the meeting after 5 00. There was a swarm of police cars that showed up in front of the mcdonalds. It became clear that the police were telling the protesters they could not stand there. They could not assemble there. They had to keep moving. At that point, i would say maybe a hundred or so folks gathered in front of the mcdonalds start to move across the street. We ended up in the parking lot of a bank. One of the principal organizers
at that point vowed to continue protesting throughout the night. Also said they were prepared to get arrested. Also said they were going to hold off because they didnt have the numbers at that point. There were more Police Officers than protesters. They wanted to wait until they got more numbers to continue to protest. It appears as if, Chris Matthews, we are in for another long night in ferguson. When do you see the trouble beginning . There was the peaceful proare test and then what the president called the bad crowd showed up. People looking for trouble. I know there is no curfew tonight. There is no law against coming out. What do you expect to happen later tonight . When the sun goes down is typically when its started to get bad, so to speak. As you can see here, probably the sun is starting to go down. Its been a hot day in ferguson. North of 90 degrees. The temperature has also started
to go down as well. We have also been told that a number of the protesters come out after work. They come out after their jobs. They get off at 5 00, 5 30, 6 00 and they come here. One of the questions i asked over and over to the protesters is what does it take for this to come . What do you want to see . Everyone i ask that question to, young and old alike, they all said the same thing. They will go home, stop. Once there is some sort of punishment for the officer involved. Whether its charges, the indictment, termination all together. But they all said the same thing. Based on those conversations, i tend to think we are going to continue to see this play out until Something Like that happens. Also asked whether they thought the lifting of the curfew would have any measurable effect. No one i talked to thought that it would. Thank you so much, craig
melvin in ferguson. Charles ramsey is the Philadelphia Police commissioner. Bernard parks is the former police chief of los angeles. Commissioner ramsey, thank you very much for taking time from your duties tonight. I have a lot of respect for you. Big city responsibilities. Is there a best practices for dealing with a situation we face tonight following a night of chaos in ferguson . Dwron if there is one best practice. You want to try to control things best you can, protect people. You want to protect property. Do the best you can and keep things as low a temperature as you can while using a minimal amount of Police Presence and or force. What would be the impact on the people, do you think, of seeing National Guardsmen in fatigues. Soldiers of america. Not Police Forces but soldiers. Will they be more respectful of them, do you think . Its difficult to say. I can understand why the
governor took the steps he took. My understanding is the forward will have a limited role in support of the county police and the state police. Thats probably needed. Its been a week now we have had proare tests going on that have turned violent, unfortunately. Youve got to bring peace and calm to the streets of ferguson. Nothing much can be accomplished if you dont do that. So depending on the role of the National Guard, i think it could be of help. The toughest thing about being a Police Officer, especially in a tough neighborhood is discernment and not profiling people, treating them as an identity based upon numbers or statistics but treating people as individuals. How do they discern the difference between are protes r protesters out there for let jit mat rights of citizenship and somebody out there to do harm to property or others . The most important thing are what are their actions . Its clear as it relates to the
crowd thats there to be positive and deal with the issue of demonstration. They are not the ones throwing fire bombs, creating havoc. The mere fact that you have protesters that carry signs or speak loud is not an indication that they are violating the law. You go by their actions and if you can surgically remove those who are creating the havoc and creating the criminal activity, you can allow that peaceful demonstration to continue. If its so intertwined you cant distinguish the law breakers from the demonstrators then you have to call it unlawful assembly. No longer do you have a peaceful demonstration when the law breakers have taken it over. Commissioner ramsey, what about the culture of police . Philadelphia has had a long police culture, tough guys. Is there a sense you have to change the lingo, practice on the crowd and say, please move
along, use please, use words that suggest we are not the enemy . Are officers or officials in these cases taught to tell the troops to get out there and do it different tonight . Or just do it the way you have always done it . I can only speak for philadelphia, washington and chicago. Those are the three agencies i have served in. Things have changed a long time ago. You respect peoples right to protest. Thats not an issuement we need to treat people respectfully at all times. Even those that may not be respectful toward us. If we can establish communication. If we start off by treating people in a respectful manner then sometimes things dont escalate. Often times things begin to escala escalate. Deescalate to bring things back to a reasonable level so people can talk. People can demonstrate. We dont have people getting injured, businesses looted. Those kind of things. Police spent a lot of time in training in the agencies i have been in and the ones i am aware of. Working on deescalation and how to better handle crowds while respecting peoples right to protest. Commissioner, the old thing i grew up in philly was frank rizzo who was no friend to the Africanamerican Community at times. He believed you had to confront a situation with overwhelming force. Does that today incite a crowd . The sign of militarization, as its called . You get a sense of that from what the tenner of the crowd is. A show of force could be inciteful. Depends when you bring it forward. You could have resources allocated out of the sight of the public only to be brought in if shg gets out of control. The key is not that you have the force, but how you choose to use it and what the timing of it, as it relates to then quelling a
problem. You dont let the problem get so far out of hand that you then have to use excessive amount of resources to bring it back. You certainly want to deal with issues as they confront you. One of the issues in los angeles is they had far greater success when we had situations that helped those who wanted to demonstrate. Many times you will see in l. A. The police are escorting demonstrators through the street to allow them to demonstrate and not be in a traffic hazard. These are the things you learn as you go forward. Force is necessary at times. Just a matter of display of force unnecessarily could work against you. Its great having you on. Thank you so much. Youre a great group to have on, fellows. Thank you very much. The big goal tonight and we all agree. Nobody gets killed tonight. Thats a good goal. Coming up, the autopsy commissioned by the brown family conclude that is Michael Brown was shot six times including twice in the head. One was at the top of his head. Famed forensic pathologist will be here to talk about what the autopsy tells us and how prosecutor prosecutors could investigate the death. And the first africanamerican president is confronted with a racially charged incident. Whats happening in ferguson reminds us we are not yet in a post racial america. This is hardball, the place for politics. If hiring plumbers, carpenters and even piano tuners were just as simple . Thanks to angies list, now it is. Weve made hiring anyone from a handyman to a dog walker as simple as a few clicks. Buy their services directly at angieslist. Com no more calling around. No more hassles. Start shopping from a list of toprated providers today. Angies list is revolutionizing local service again. Visit angieslist. Com today. Well be right back with more from ferguson, missouri. Protesters have begun to march after a chaotic night. Police in ferguson are insisting that the protesters keep moving. Hardball, back after this. Kings hawaiian had faced, since robert taira opened his first bakery in a small hawaiian town. Making bread so good, that people bought two loaves one to take home, and one to eat on the way. So good, they grew from here. To here. To here. But to grow again, to the east coast they needed a new factory, but where . Fortunately, they get financing from ge capital. We not only have teams dedicated to the food industry, were also part of ge, a company thats built hundreds of factories. So we could bring in experts to help kings hawaiian make sense of transportation routes, supply chains, labor pools, and zoning to help them make the right decision. And, id like to think, to make their founder proud. If you just need a loan, just call a bank. At ge capital, were builders. And what we know, can help you grow. Thats why i always choose the fastest intern. R slow. The fastest printer. The fastest lunch. Turkey club. The fastest pencil sharpener. The fastest elevator. The fastest speed dial. The Fastest Office plant. So why wouldnt i choose the fastest wifi . I would. Switch to comcast Business Internet and get the fastest wifi included. Comcast business. Built for business. I met with the mother. She had the question any mother would have. Was my child in pain . Dr. Baden shared in his opinion he did not suffer. Welcome back to hardball. That was attorney Benjamin Krump who represents the family of Michael Brown describing the question Michael Browns mother had following an independent autopsy. This autopsy commissioned by the family revealed the unarmed 18yearold was shot at least six times including twice in the head. A separate examination is being performed as a result of what the Justice Department calls extraordinary circumstances. The county of st. Louis has conducted an earlier autopsy. The results havent been released. Nbc news confirmed with the st. Louis medical Examiners Office that Michael Brown was shot multiple times. That was the phrase from them. Joining me now forensic pathologist dr. Cyril wecht. How much can we expect . All three together or the second one for the family . I dont believe anything more will be learned from the third autopsy. Its too bad the feds could not have moved a little bit faster and gotten together with the family and arranged for an observer participant to be there with dr. Baden. Each time a body is dissected, things are changed. The obfuscation after two is great. Each time you dissect and examine bullet wounds, internal organ and tissue damage you are altering the picture and the ultimate diagnosis. What we have learned about the six wounds and, chris,
something that must be kept in mind with regard to the arm wounds, the arm moves in all kinds of positions. So supine, palm up or prone, palm down we call sup nation and pronation. You cant be sure whats front and back and how the shots were fired. With regard to the two shots to the head. Two things come to my mind. Number one, this young man is 6 63. It wasnt sniper fire from a tall tree. The young man was falling when the shots were fired. Those are the shots that killed him. Particularly the one that entered the top of the head and went into the brain. The shot entered around the eye and moved downward through the jaw and reentered in the superclavicular region above the clavicle. There is no way it could have been inflicted other thanMichael Brown falling, toppling down so that the trunk of his body is almost parallel to the ground and the shot comes in. It really has a parallel course by when the body is erect or lying on the autopsy table it appears to be perpendicular. There is a lot to be done. How many shots were fired . Were the casings obtained to show where the shooter was, were there other shots fired . The clothing. I do believe thats important. But i think they were probably going to find shots fired beyond 18, 24 inches which is the distance of a handgun beyond which you dont get gunpowder residue or stippling patterns. Well see how it plays out when the clothing analysis is released. Can Forensic Science and autopsies tell us whether a person was brought down after the shots not to his head . If the shooter were acting in
selfdefense, to shoot a person the fifth and six times after they already shot them three or four times to stop them if they were the aggressor. We know a shot to the brain in this case would not have allowed michaelle brown to engage in any kind of activity. It is almost certain that shot and most likely then the other shot because it struck him in the face, too, that those shots were fired at the end after the four shots to the arm. Thats deeply regrettable. The four shots to the arm, while nobody would like to be shot in the arm, it would not result in death or even the loss of the limb. Would it stop the assailant . Would it stop a person in their tracks . Remove them as a threat . No, no. Shooting somebody in the arm would not stop him in his tracks. Shooting him in the face and certainly a bullet into the brain is going to stop him pretty much in his tracks. There will be a little bit of
movement, momentum of the body. Not anything of a prolonged, sustained, deliberate nature. Hank you so much. Thank you for coming on today. I thought you were great this morning. A missouri grand jury could be hearing evidence wednesday in the shooting death of Michael Brown. Joining me now are two attorneys. Mid win charles who hosts a raid program on wbls and philip hollow holloway. Ms. Charles, thanks for joining us. What do you think well get from the science about the nature of the incident . We dont know its a crime yet. What can we tell . I think what we can tell from the autopsy, at least with the one we have by dr. Baden is how Michael Brown died and the manner in which he died. That makes autopsies so impo