The woods, living in a hole im going to have to hold it there, gentlemen, citing breaking news and thank god the families can breathe relief in that area tonight. Clint and jim, thank you both. Thanks for watching. Im al sharpton. Stay with msnbc for coverage. Hardball starts right now. Going to the mattresses. Lets play hardball. Good evening, im Chris Matthews up in boston. The republicans are all of a sudden going at each other like rats in a hot tub. Governor christie fighting with anyone in sight. Acting exactly like a governor whod stick his Lieutenant Governor on a holdout mayor,
the bridgegate guy. Ted cruz is attacking jeb bush, who is now doing what he wants to do in 2016. Go oneonone with Hillary Clinton. You got to love this stuff. Two years ahead of an election, and theyre all out there brawling already. Rnc chair for a while and editor at large for salon. Lets start with christie. On the second anniversary of hurricane sandy, he unloaded on a man for testing his handling of the recovery efforts. We showed part of the exchange yesterday. Heres more of it. Listen, you all know me. So if were going to get into a debate here today, its going to get very interesting and very fun, so, yeah, i understand. So, ill be more than happy to have a debate with you, any time you like, guy, because somebody like you doesnt know a damn thing about what youre talking about, except to stand up and show off when the cameras are here. Ive been here when the cameras arent here, buddy, and done the
work. I was here when the cameras werent here and did the work. So glad you had your day to show off, but were the ones who are here to actually do the work. Turn around and get your 15 minutes of fame, and then maybe take your jacket off, roll of your sleeves and do something for the people of this state. [ cheers and applause ] so well see. Now, listen everybody what we [ inaudible ] and theres been 23 months since then when all youve been doing is flapping your mouth and not doing anything. You want to have the conversation later, im happy to have it. But until that time, sit down and shut up. [ cheers and applause ] yeah, any time you like,
bud buddy. Any time you like. Its wonderful. Absolutely. Ill tell you, theres about a thousand things ill do tonight. Going to dinner with you is about number 1,001. What do you make of that . Thats unusual for a guy auditioning to be president. This is what he thinks people right. I watch that and he thinks that his crowd, his people love that. Hes thinking about those debate audiences who cheered when talking about somebody dying without insurance. Hes thinking of that rabid audience that likes to see people bullied and shut down. The day before he said to the Public Health nurse, who he was also bullying, hey, i dont care if you sue me, get in line, im used to it. This is the persona he thinks may win the republican base. Temperamentally, hes conservative enough, hes a big bully and he was having a good time there. Its not something i want in a president , but there are people who like it. Are there people in your republican world that will like this sort of streetcorner behavior . Yeah, i think there will be a place for it. But i think a more broad audience of republicans, it probably would wear a little thin after a bit. And i think it probably has in some respects. Republicans that ive heard from, who commented on this, you know, its not been, wow, you go get them. Its been, like, really . Telling the guy lets talk about it and move on. Christie, thats his brand, i think joan is right. Its part of the public persona that he projects out there that has a resonance with a Certain Group of people, even among democrats and independents. But when youre talking about president ial temper, its a different quality set theyre looking for and i think christie is going to have to find that balance. Because doing this in the middle
of a president ial campaign would fall very, very flat. Yeah. It doesnt seem to be the perfect audition for somebody to end washington dysfunction. Anyway, today he made no apologies for his sit down and shut up behavior. Lets watch him today. If someones going to stand up and i ignore them for a while and they continue to be rude and talk over me and other people, then im going to engage. And thats what the people of new jersey and people in the country have some respect for me. I dont look forward to doing that stuff, but i dont shrink away from it either. Its just another day at the ranch. Rancho christie. Im trying to figure out how he put together the public christie with a sliver of this bullying, but its sort of acceptable to some people who grew up in the east coast, i think. And then what may be behind it. After seeing him in action yesterday, who doesnt think that gives you a vivid picture of what he was like when he told his Lieutenant Governor to go strong arm the hoboken mayor to
get that Waterfront Development approved or she wasnt going to get any money. That guy talks like the kind of guy who would say, put the pressure on this woman. Lets look back and how the mayor described that encounter which she said came at the orders, according to order, the Lieutenant Governor was told to go put the pressure on her, the strong arm on her. Lets watch it. The bottom line is, she came and she made a direct threat to me. She came, when the Lieutenant Governor comes, pulls you aside in a parking lot and says that these two things are connected, i know it shouldnt be, but they are, and if you tell anyone, ill deny it. She felt guilty about saying it, she knows its wrong, but thats what theyre trying to do. Can you be a verbal bully, a mouthy guy, and then at the same time, not look like youre guilty of the charges made against you . In the bridgegate case and all
aspects. I separate the one from the other. I separate yesterdays incidents from the bridgegate thing, because that has consequences. The bridgegate. That had an impact on people, on the economy, and a bunch of other things. This was an exchange between a reporter, between a former councilman and the governor. I separate the two. But the overarching picture of just the way christie tends to engage with people who disagree with him, i think thats something that the American People are going to pay a lot more close attention to as we go closer to these things. Whats the difference between he shouted that guy down, what we just saw, and the way the mayor of hoboken said he treated her . Because the mayor was talking about a conversation she had with the Lieutenant Governor, not the governor. Thats my point. But the Lieutenant Governor said he talked to me last night
and i know it shouldnt be this way, but again, chris, i get the dots youre trying to connect, but its not the same thing as the governor going to the mayor of hoboken and having that conversation. I dont see the difference. Of course you dont. We have one on video and the other one we dont. But mayor zimmers complaints become very believable. The bridgegate was very believable because we had the context of this guy who seems largely out of control sometimes and very willing to throw his weight around figatively, i mean. So it resonated, immediately. You have the picture of him up there making fun of reporters asking about the lane closures, saying i was the guy moving around the cones, you idiots, like how dare you ask me questions. He says in the second clip, chris, i dont really enjoy this. Thats not true. His staff follows him around. Theyre the ones for the most part who are uploading these confrontations on youtube. This is a persona hes carefully cultivated and then he got a little shy about it, when it seemed to dove tail so naturally with the bridgegate allegations. You only get one reputation and the one hes building is the one on camera. And it will intrude on how we see him. Lets move to another guy. Frank mankiewicz, i went to his funeral. He said always Pay Attention to what a politician says after they use the word but. So now lets watch ted cruz in action earlier today on cnbc. Jeb has not declared his candida candidacy. I like him. Ill let him decide if hes running, but i will say this. We need to learn from history. We need to look to history, what works and what doesnt. One thing is clear, that if republicans run another candidate in the mold of a bob dole, or a john mccain, or a
mitt romney, let me be clear, all three of those are good, honorable, decent men, patriots. But if we run another candidate in the mold of a bob dale, or john mccain or mitt romney, well end up with the same result. Millions of people will stay home on election day. If we run another candidate like that, Hillary Clinton will be the next president. What do you make of that after the word but. He said the nice flowery stuff, then says but this guys a loser. Eisenhower, nixon, reagan, lets face it, he doesnt show his far right face when he was running. W. Won. George sr won. This idea you only win with farout rightwingers, when have you been victorious with a hard rightwinger . Im going to do what you dont expect me to do. Im going to applaud ted cruz
for what he said. And heres why. Let me tell you why. Because ive said for over two years now the gop, to deal with this tension that exists within the party, go ahead and nominate the most conservative person you can find. Because every election cycle, we go through the same stuff where they look back and they point a finger at bob dole, they point a finger at mitt romney, et cetera, as if they werent conservative enough. Mitt romney was a conservative governor. And you want him to lose . This is not about winning or losing at this point. This is about this is about [ all speak at once ] chris, this is about making a conservative case with the conservative nominee, as defined by those individuals to the American People and let the chips fall where they may with the American People. Thats the only way you get past this craziness, after every cycle where we sit back and we tear down our nominee. And it really reminds me, there are people on the left i dont like to do that on the right and left. But there are people on the left
who believe all we need to do is run somebody to the left of Elizabeth Warren. State our principles more and more clearly and be more radical. And even though i share some of those beliefs, i dont believe thats a winning message. That is what the tea party is about. They truly believe that the problem was these people were too moderate and all they have to do, theres a silent majority there waiting for somebody like ted cruz. Im sure ted cruz thinks its ted cruz. I disagree with him, i think the three of us disagree with him. But it would be entertaining to see him have a shot at it. He would lose. Anyway, rand paul is picking a fight with his entire party. This is what he said while stumping in michigan yesterday. Quote, remember Dominos Pizza . They admitted, hey, our pizza crust sucks. The Republican Party brand sucks, so people dont want to be a republican, and so for 80 years, African Americans have had nothing to do with republicans. Why . Because of the perception. The problem s the perception is that no one in the Republican Party cares. Were also fighting 40 years of us doing a crappy job of republicans not trying at all for 40 years. So its a lot of overcoming. Hes obviously a very intent guy with a lot of philosophical reading behind him. He sounds like a 14yearold. What is all this language about, crapping this and crapping that, and pizza crust, whats his point . Again, im going to go there. I applaud him. And ill tell you why. Because what youre seeing was what i hope will become the beginning of a similar soldier moment that needs to happen within the gop. The way we tend to put people in boxes, we got to do minority outreach. No just talk to voters. This is not a complicated task. And so i think what rand paul is beginning to do is just trying to make this move in a direction that no one else right now in the party is moving in, in which
hes going to have a different kind of conversation. So i think the language in all that notwithstanding, i think its going to be interesting to watch how he challenges those individuals next to him on the stage in the next 18 months or so, to have this kind of conversation. And i think hes trying to be the one who leads and ultimately finishes it. Why doesnt he then come out against the Voter Suppression efforts . I was go to say that. Again, chris, this is a process. In politics in the 21st century, we evolve. This is a process hes going to go through. You dont just do it overnight. You just dont come out and take up the position right away. You work your way into that conversation. So lets see where he is in three, five, six months when it comes to issues like that. By your reference point, the republican is in the cromagnon non state right now. And theyll reach homosapien in what century . When will they reach full
development . We are at full development. The question is, we have two things go on. One is this internal struggle as to what conservativism is right now, what it means and how we talk about that to people. The next is whos going to be that leader that puts that package together for the American People . I think rand pauls real target is not so much African Americans, although i applaud his lip service to that. I think its young people. What about the language with the sucks and the dominos and the crappy. Hes trying to reach young people. Young people are a better target for the Republican Party than African Americans. But a lot of them dont like the demonization of African Americans and they dont like the racism. So rand paul may not make inroads with African Americans in the next cycle. I disagree with that. I want to make one last reference to dominos, which is the prolife pizza. I just want to say, dominos
comes in 30 minutes. When is the new Republican Party arriving . [ laughter ] anyway its going to be longer than that. I tried to bring it. That genius overwhelmed you. Anyway, well talk next about a republican sweep maybe. Races are tight, but the democrats are calling in the cavalry. The clintons are coming in to fight to stop the sweep. Plus, the governors races. From pennsylvania to florida to wisconsin, michigan, all kinds of states. Anyway, this is hardball, the place for politics. Breaking news, state police in pennsylvania have confirmed they have captured accused cop killer eric frein. Frein has been on the run since september 12th, when two Pennsylvania State troopers were shot outside a State Police Barracks in Blooming Grove in the northeastern part of that state. One of those troopers was killed. Frein, who is described as a survivalist eluded police in the mountains for 48 days. A source tells nbc news frein was caught in a hangar at the pocono Mountain Airport in an area that was not open to the public. Former fbi profiler Clint Van Zandt joins us, along with jim cavanaugh. Clint, what does where he was captured tell you . Well, a number of things. Number one, weve heard for these last almost two months that hes a survivalist, that he can hide out in the woods under any conditions. And yet it appears that a team of deputy u. S. Marshalls on a
routine sweep, were able to find him in this unused, or abandoned indoor facility. So what it says to us, Law Enforcement has really been the last 48 days, looking for him, all of the preplanned issues of food and equipment and tents and hiding spots, by their actions, they were able to take all of those away from him. Reducing him to try to find an abandoned building to hide out in, to get away from the cold, and thats where they got him without firing a shot. He surrendered his weapon and gave up. So you may think he was a really bad guy to kill a state trooper and shoot another out of ambush. But when he was faced with regular Law Enforcement officers face to face, he did what so many will do, laid down his weapon and surrendered. Now its up to the criminal justice to deal with him for the
trial. Jim cavanaugh, that he gave himself up in the end, what does that tell you . Well, he was spent. He was spent, like clint said. Spent 45 days on the run. These guys, when they go off into the mountains, we all think theyre Jeremiah Johnson and living offe ing off the land. Its not true. Hes in a hangar at the pocono airport. Hes not as rugged as purported to be. He did good for 45 days, but hes probably exhausted, and dehydrated and hasnt been eating well. He gave up. Im glad he gave up. Well fint out that his ideology was that of a loser, a violent antigovernment guy. Were going to be disappointed when we find out all of the computer stuff that the state troopers have already uncovered about him, how hes probably, you know, living in this antigovernment, antipolice ideology that destroys so many
people. And what does he do . He gives a lot of pain to trooper dixons family, trooper douglass family. But he basically destroys his own life and his own family. Theres no cause that really works. Its just sort of a crack pot ideology that these guys get sucked into. Its not that distant, really, from what we see from Even International terrorism. Its sort of a crazy thinking that killing someone, killing some innocent person is going to raise some cause. I think were going to see well be disappointed. Hes going to be just a loser and we should forget his name and remember the names of those two troopers. All right, thank you to clint and jim. Well continue to track this story tonight. Now we go back to hardball. Welcome back to hardball. Two states and two women could
hold back a republican sweep come