For him. Thanks to al in d. C. John and i will be back tomorrow in gotham city. Well see you then. Thanks for watching. And sayonara. Coming up, hardball with Chris Matthews. The third man. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington on this day after easter. The republican nominee for president will either be donald trump who will win on delegates, or someone else who wins at an open convention. If it comes to it, that could be Ohio Governor john kasich, our guest tonight. Im joined by president ial candidate Governor John Kasich of ohio. A poll shows you beating Hillary Clinton by 11 points in a
hypothetical general election matchup. It shows trump losing to clinton by 38 to 49 . Youre fund rising off the lowlevel feud between trump and cruz. Your campaign sent out an email today that reads enough is enough with the mud slinging and the personal attacks. Its time to get serious and select a republican who can win in the fall. With your help, it would deny Trump Delegates and head into the convention with the man who will win. Theres two ways the Republican Party will pick a delegate. Donald trump, or someone else at the convention. How do you win at the convention . Looking at it from this point . Well, because, chris, if you take a look at all the polls that republican versus hillary, im really the only one who consistently wins. I think the fox poll may be an aberration for cruz. But theres no way he wins. You go to the convention. Im a conservative. Some of these talk show people, you know, try to run me down. Tell me whos balanced more budgets, reformed welfare, cut more taxes, shrunk government, transferred power out of washington, or out of our state capital. Nobodys done all that. Who knows more about national security. So i think at that point theyre going to say, all right, who can win in the fall, which is me, and secondly, this is a crazy one, chris, who actually could be president . And who could help fix the country . I think both of those things are appealing to delegates. You know who the delegates are. Theyre the people you know. Theyre the local party officials, theyre former state legislators, former congressmen. These are people that will make good choices, and this notion that everythings going to be crazy over there is false. Lets talk about lets gps it. You get to cleveland. You get some delegates. Trump doesnt have new for the
1,237, neither does cruz, hes well behind trump. You get to the convention and start giving that pitch, which i think is a good pitch. Who are the leaders . Are there any leaders . Is Reince Priebus a leader . Do we have any guys with cigars like bob strauss would sit in the back room, and actually ohwhos going to broker the damn thing . Dont you need leaders who say, come in here, we think we have a deal that will work here . Figure it out. Whos going to broker it . Who are the brokers . Well, look, youre going to have people like haley barber involved. On my side ive got charlie black. I was there with charlie in 1976. I was just a kid. Charlie was one of the most important people in the Reagan Campaign and hell be involved with us. Ben weber is another one, john sununu, they know how to do these kinds of things. In terms of how you broker it, this isnt going to be a bunch of guys sitting in the back room with a bunch of cigars, i dont
think, because we have so much transparency now. If you smell of smoke coming from the back room, people will smell it. A person going into the convention who led in delegates was only selected three times out of ten. So at some point people are going to look, think about brussels. Weve got one guy weve got one guy saying that we should ban all muslims from coming into america. I have no idea how you would do that. Weve got another guy we should be patrolling muslim neighborhoods. You and i both know if youre going to have intelligence and protect the country, you cant alienate the many people you need to help us to figure out where the radicals are and where they live. These things are important, chris. Were talking about electing the commander in chief, not all this politics. Forget it. I agree with you, governor. Some guy in new york deciding ellis island, wherever you have
to decide this, decides at the airport, are you a men onnite christian or supporting jewish . A lot of people have similar looks and backgrounds. I dont know how you decide on somebodys religious beliefs. I agree with you on that. What do you think of cruz having patrol cars going through neighborhoods, where he thinks there are suspiciously islamic and driving around in squad cars patrolling them . All i know is bill bratton, who is the best spers on policing in america, i only spoke to him one time. He is a brilliant guy. Ran boston, i guess he ran whatever it is, the traffic side of boston, the subways and all that, the metro system, police chief of new york city. He goes to los angeles, he figures out how to deal with the gangs. Now hes back in new york again. He said this idea that cruz has is crazy. And then his deputy saying the
same thing. What are you going to do . You get this information on i want to say one more thing. If you want to get information on radicalism, who do you think is going to find it out, Chris Matthews or someone who is part of the Muslim Community . How do you make this case, though . The last convention, like three ballots, the democrats back in 52, they had a guy they didnt like, thought he was a drunk or something, just didnt like the guy. He didnt make it to the all of a sudden this wellspoken guy, stevenson, by the third ballot he wins. Youre laughing that nothings like that happened but in the movies in the last 60 years. How about lincoln . Thats a long time ago, before the tube and everything else. How do you rise up on the third or fifth or sixth ballot . Assuming trump doesnt get to
1,237. The establishment says heres how you do it. Okay. I dont know that the establishment, the delegates are going to look at record. Im going to stress that i can be the president to fix the country. But secondly, i have the ability to get the crossover votes, to actually win. I beat hillary soundly in every Single National poll. Either we want to win i assume were trying to pick a republican who can win in the fall and somebody that can be president. So you get around, you see the delegations look, i was with Ronald Reagan in 1976. I ran five states for him at the convention. And we came very, very close to defeating an incumbent republican president. The delegates take this stuff seriously. So well have our people out there, theyll have their people out there. And well make the appeal. Elses worked pretty well for me throughout my lifetime. Between now and cleveland this summer, where are you going
to win . Youre apparently pulling your ads in parts of wisconsin. Are you going to win wisconsin or is that going to go to somebody else . Can you win pennsylvania . I think youre strong in pennsylvania. Well, look, were in pennsylvania, were in a dead heat with trump, okay . And then when we head farther east, were going to peick up delegates. Well pick up delegates in all these places and well move forward. Well get delegates here in wisconsin. Pennsylvanias going to be, like i say, were doing very well there. But the key is not necessarily having to win as much as it has to do with getting delegates. By the way, you know, ive received like no bump. Im whining a little bit here. I win ohio by 11 points and what do people say, hohum . I mean, the day before the election theyre like, its but its let me ask you this question. How many people who have ever run for president in the Republican Party got elected
without winning ohio . How many . None. I can give you the answer. Zero. I know. Its like a battleground state. Its really critical. Im not going on any ticket. If trump cleans up his act and says its the only way the republicans win the general, we need ohio and they need you, what do you say . Im not doing that. Not for havent vice president. By the time i finish my second term as governor, if i dont work out here, i will have been in public life for 30 years. Thats about as much service as anybody can be expected to give, and for those who serve their country, why dont you serve your country and get behind me. What are you doing . Serve your country and get behind me. How do you like that, matthews . Thats pretty good. Thats pretty personal. Get behind me, come on. My vote is waiting for
november. But thank you very much. Im not talking about you, im talking thats personal. I was getting nervous there. I thought you were retailing me for a minute. Anyway, john kasich of ohio, thanks for coming on. Its always great. Coming up, trump versus cruz. The battle between donald trump and ted cruz sounds Like High School boys towel snapping in the locker room. Trump said of cruz, he started it. Also, weekend with bernie. Bernie has victories in all three contests, alaska, hawaii and state of washington. Hes stepping up his attacks right now on Hillary Clinton. Can he still win the democratic nomination . Great question. Plus, fresh off the weekend. The round table gives access to the reporters notebooks. And finally tonight, let me finish with what happened 100 years ago today, a terrible beauty was born. This is hardball, the place for politics. Or saving th
over half a grand when they switch to progressive. So im dabbling in new ventures. It was boardgame night with the dalai lama. Great guy. Terrible player. Go paperless dont stress, girl i got the discounts that you need its a balancing act, but i got to give the people what they want more box. Any words for the critics . What can i say . Critties gonna neg. [ applause ] the what . [ laughs ] you cant breathed. Through your nose. Suddenly, youre a mouthbreather. Well, just put on a breathe right strip which instantly opens your nose up to 38 more than Cold Medicine alone. Shut your mouth and say goodnight mouthbreathers. Breathe right a 401 k is the most sound way to go. Lets talk asset allocation. Sure. You seem knowledgeable, professional. Im actually a dj. [ dance music plays ] woman [laughs] no way that really is you . If theyre not a cfp pro, you just dont know. Cfp work with the highest standard. Big things are brewing this week on msnbc. Donald trump will join me for an exclusive town hall at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. A huge lineup here on msnbc. It starts at 7 00 p. M. Eastern, john kasich will join chuck todd in queens, new york. At 9, Rachel Maddow will sit down with both democratic candidates, with Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Its all on msnbc this wednesday night. Retirement may not always be clear. But at t. Rowe price, we can help guide your retirement savings. So wherever your Retirement Journey takes you, we can help you reach your goals. Call us or your advisor t. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Watching tvs get sharper, oh remotes, youve had it tough. Bigger, smugger. And you . Rubbery buttons. Enter the x1 voice remote. Now when someone says. Show me funny movies. Watch discovery. Record this. Voila. Remotes you are back. The x1 voice remote is here. X1 customers get your voice remote by visiting xfinty. Com voiceremote. Welcome back to hardball. The republican race seemed to reach new lows in the past two weeks with the wives of donald trump and ted cruz coming up attack. Charlie sykes called on trump to apologize to ted cruz. I failed in my effort to introduce you to wisconsin and our tradition of civility and decency by getting an apology from you for heidi cruz or what you said about scott walker am i getting an apology by someone who sent out a picture of my wife to everybody . As we know, that was an independent group. No, it wasnt. No, it wasnt. Is he going to apologize . Is ted cruz going to apologize for starting it and sending out that picture . I didnt start it. He started it. If he didnt start it, it would have never happened. Nothing like this would have ever happened. But he started it. So just remember, were not on a hey, were not on a playground. Were running for president of the united states. I agree with that a hundred percent. Im joined by Hallie Jackson in wisconsin. And Senior Adviser to jeb bush,
thank you for joining us. Hallie, we just had john kasich on. Hes hopeful he can be the third man, the one who emerges, after multiple ballots up in cleveland. I guess thats what what is cruz how does he he wins wisconsin, i guess, isnt that the plan . And then moves on . Thats the goal. Thats exactly right. Win wisconsin and move on. Its not just a strategy about delegates, because obviously the Campaign Wants to lock up the nomination before a contested convention. That does seem very difficult for them. If you look at the map, its nearly impossible, or is impossible for john kasich to do. Which is why hes looking for a contested convention. The team has strategies in place to do this, especially when it comes to delegates. Youve seen what theyve done in louisiana making sure their delegate slates are stacked, picking up the delegates from rubio, and doing the same thing in south carolina. Look for them to do that in
north dakota this weekend and colorado coming up. Why does wisconsin matter . Well, for ted cruz, its an opportunity to prove not only can he win another state, that he can do it in the midwest and pick up momentum as the rest of the calendar moves east to new york and new jersey, where you would think trump would romp, but the Cruz Campaign is certainly not receding. If he wins wisconsin, that does shake things up. Al, we were talking in that earlier segment with john kasich. I said, who are the bosses in politics . Who are the people in the back room like in the old days, bob strauss, the democratic side, who can actually broker a convention . How do you have a brokered convention with no brokers . Who are they . Well, ill tell you, very few. Maybe you are. Well, look, furthermore, there hasnt been a successful one yet. I went back and looked at the 1820s with the antimason
convention and i looked at nine or ten open or brokered or contested conventions. And not a single candidate emerging out of those conventions ever won a general election. Here we have two guys, as comedians would say, whos on first . So both ted and donald trump have to stop this thing. When people are laughing with you, thats good. When theyre laughing at you, thats not good. And so they better get this thing figured out and we better get into a convention and figure out also how to heal the wounds that theyre getting deeper the more personal this thing gets. When it gets to your families, it gets very dirty. Heres a bit of the backandforth over the last 36 hours. Just 36 hours. Hes been hiding in trump tower. Late at night he sends tweets attacking my wife, attacking heidi. It is inappropriate and disgusting. This is garbage. Tabloid smear. And it came from donald trump
and his henchmen. I had nothing to do with the National National enquirer. I just saw it yesterday for the first time. Its likely he should blame me because hes losing by a lot. This has turned into an absurd race to the bottom. This is the campaign that trump wants. Chaos, unpredictability, unseriousness. Ask yourself which one of the three remaining candidates will prosper. At least not be damaged by that focus. The answer is obvious. Hallie, it seems to me the according to chris thinking, trump does well on a muddy track. When things get rough and tumble and people get personal and go after each others spouses, he always comes out better. Because look at whats not being talked about, chris. A few days removed, a week removed from a terror attack overseas. There was a shooting at the capital today. There are events happening here
in the u. S. And around the world that the conversation has simply moved beyond because of donald trump. Largely continuing to bring this up when had eis in the public eye, hes continuing to be asked about it as well. This is a point ted cruz made today. Talked about the idea should donald trump apologize to ted cruz, should ted cruz apologize to donald trump. I asked the senator about this, and he looked around and he said, who cares. Who cares if donald trump is sitting up late at night tweeting. Who cares if the American People deserve better this, we need to move on. It allows cruz to look like hes taking the high road here, and allows him to do what he and his Campaign Want to do in wisconsin, which is pivot away from attacks on donald trump and instead talk more about two things, jobs, and national security. Much more so than weve seen from ted cruz over the last couple of months. Hes taking what you could call a more pop i list tone. Talking about workers and
economic security and Foreign Policy as it relates to keeping the u. S. Safe. Which is something hes talked about before, but its clearly field designed for him to appeal to the wisconsin conservatives as opposed to the utah conservatives or iowa conservatives, places hes been successful in the past. I dont buy the fact that cruz says trump attacked my two children and family. Why does cruz talk about the two kids . Nobodys talking about his kids. Why did he bring it up . Theres no way its in there. I think hes trying to draw this idea of family. His family under fire. I think theres perhaps an idea that people can relate to that, right . People who have families, who have spouses can relate to their spouses coming under attack. Al, what do you make of that . I guess you can go way back to the late 19th century, they talk about candidates, fathering illegitimate children, wheres my ma and wheres my pa, that kind of stuff. Weve had dirty campaigns of this nature, but not recently. This is the sideabout isides of spouses. This is so high school. This is pretty rough stuff. Well, look, weve started appealing to our lower instincts in some of these primary commentaries. Its only gone downhill since. At least in the early days you had duels. And that kept most people from stepping out of line. Nowadays, its just a backandforth. But look, if they dont get this resolved soon and we move forward, with kind of the serious talk that she was just talking about, i think our partys wasti