Mueller contradicting the trump barr claims, the reigniting of the impeachment debate, two mueller aides debating his approach. Ill be anchoring it at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on sunday night. I hope youll consider joining us. Dont go anywhere right now, because hardball is up next. Good evening, im Chris Matthews in washington with that horrific breaking news now out of Virginia Beach. Theres been a Mass Shooting at the Municipal Center there. 11 people are dead. According to police, the suspect, a current city employee, was also killed. Police say they believe the suspect acted alone. Were going to keep an eye on that and any developments out of that news story out of Virginia Beach. And now to tonights politics. The word tonight is that the trump partisan allies on capitol hill want to rough up Robert Mueller. The reason is politics. The president s allies wanting to discredit the Special Counsel and diminish his findings. They want him to testify before the congress where they can assault him with hostile questions about the origins of his report. Anything but the report itself. The daily beast is reporting that this has become the mission. Ever since mueller declared on wednesday he did not want to testify. In the report, quote, president trumps close advisers are increasingly pining for mueller to be dragged before congress and subjected to conservative lawmakers questions about the conduct and outcome of his investigation. Well, this clashes, of course, with president trumps public call for bob mueller not to testify, a position the president repeated last friday. They want to do a redo, like even the fact that theyre asking bob mueller to come and testify. He just gave them a 434page report. He just gave that report. Why does he have to testify . Its ridiculous. But according to the daily beast the Special Counsels eightminute statement on wednesday encouraged trumps
allies to support him testifying before the congress. And now Rudy Giuliani says if they allow republican Congressman Meadows and jordan and a few of the others there, theyll eviscerate him more than they did michael cohen. In terms of the politics of it, i would love to have him testify. I think hes afraid to. Thats Rudy Giuliani talking. Meanwhile democrats remain adamant in their call that mueller testify. They also want him to testify, even though mueller made clear he wont say anything beyond the contents of his report. Heres the chairman of the house judiciary committee, new york congressman jerry nadler. We will have mr. Muellers testimony. I think its very important that he testify before the American People, even if he doesnt say anything beyond what was said there. Well, this comes as attorney general william barr tells cbs news that he didnt agree with the legal analysis in muellers report. Barr says that he intervened to apply what he called the right law when he decided to announce that the president had not
obstructed justice. We analyzed the law and the facts, and a group of us spent a lot of time doing that and determined that both as a matter of law, many of the instances would not amount to obstruction. As a matter of law . As a matter of law. We didnt agree with the legal analysis a lot of the legal analysis in the report. It did not reflect the views of the department. It was the views of a particular lawyer or lawyers. And so we applied what we thought was the right law. Thats bill barr up in his Mountain Lodge somewhere. By the way, its about 90 degrees here in urkt washington. Im joined by madeline dean, heidi przybyla, the White House Reporter for the daily beast that had this story and john meacham is the author of the new book with tim mcgraw, songs of
america, Patriotism Protest and the music that made a nation. Thank you all for joining us. Congresswoman, this is a strange situation. Robert mueller has been a hero for many people for the past two years and now the goal of the republican troublemakers is to get him up on the hill, tear him apart on the origins of his probe and make him look awful. Well, thank you for having me on and i am very mindful of the shooting that you are covering yet again in this country. Weve had another Mass Shooting. At least 11 dead. Its time this president focused on Something Like that instead of the sandstorm that he creates day after day. As to mr. Mueller coming before congress and coming before our committee, i am very confident that mr. Mueller will testify credibly and that he will not have any problem handling the republicans on my committee. Were talking about somebody who was fbi director for more than ten years. Hes been up against some of the toughest legal minds and
adversaries. I have no worries. I actually think that reporting reveals something very different. I think it reveals a white house in panic, and so instead i think they decided their message of the day would be sure, Lets Get Mueller out there. Lets try to scare mueller. Mueller is not to be scared. Mueller is not to be toyed with. He will come, he will testify honestly and credibly. This white house is in a panic. Who are your sources . Are they on the hill or at the white house . The people on the record for the story include Rudy Giuliani, john dowd, joe digenova, matt gaetz, people that have the president s ear and speak to him regularly or fairly regularly. Again, there are both people within the administration and without it who are starring to form this consensus among trump world. Talk about how they think they can get his scalp. The congresswoman thinks hes tough enough to stand up against it. The motive they have in wanting him on the hill and under the lights, if you will. Exactly. They really do think if you get him in front of meadows, gaetz, jim jordan, that they will be able to essentially filet Robert Mueller and publicly humiliate him. At this point its about getting him out there so they can enact some sort of trumpian revenge fantasy. Hold on, congresswoman, i want to hear from heidi przybyla. What do you make of the fact they have made it pretty clear where theyll buzz in on him. Theyll go in on him on strzok, the fbi agent who shouldnt have been talking with his girlfriend, lisa page. Theyll go in on Christopher Steele and the dossundercuts, undermines and sabotages his report. I agree with the congresswoman that mueller is not going to be at owlall kowed
that. They will create these madefortv moments that will be played in a certain way, specifically Primetime Hosts like sean hannity. They will ask questions that arent really questions, theyre statements. They will preen for the cameras and we covered in a skewed way. Thats why when we see footage of a fox news viewer earlier today saying she thought there was nothing bad for the president in the Mueller Report, you understand how even if mueller gets up, does a great job, knocks it out of the park and recites his whole report, just giving jordan and meadows the air time that they would get on fox news by sean hannity would serve the purpose for the maga crowd and further continue if they can defile an entire institution of the fbi, they can certainly hurt one individual. John meacham, i just watched that tenpart series on the o. J. Trial. Beautiful dramaization, i assume
its pretty accurate. That case, that trial wasnt about evidence, it was about attitude. The jurists the an attitude, everybody had an attitude. The maga people arent going to change their minds based on some incremental piece of evidence. They still are like we like trump, we hate you guys. American politics has always been defined by the tension between reason and passion. And the o. J. Trial was a case where passion trumped reason. In most congressional hearings, chris, you know this as well or better than i do, going back 70 years to mccarthy, through watergate remember the chinese fundraising hearings . Iran contra hearings. They have always been, since the advent of television, they have been theatrical productions. With all respect to the congr s
congresswoman, i dont think the white house is in a panic or any more than they tend to be perenni perennially. I think because bill barr stepped in and functionally made the Mueller Report the barr report really, in terms of political narrative, a phrase thats overused but in this case applies, because of that, oddly, and one of the many oddities of the era, a report that is to any sensible reader selfevidently damning has become in this carnivallike atmosphere in which we live, has become somehow exculpatory. Let me go back to the congresswoman. What about the fact they just have to mess things up. They dont have to win the argument, just mess it up and say there isnt a clear cut National Mandate to impeach . Well, you know what, i thought this week the fact that mueller on his way out the door chose to speak was very pivotal and important and powerful. Because what he said was read the report. America, you need to read the
report so that you see the sweeping interference by russia, the wallowing and welcoming of it by the Trump Campaign, and then the Obstruction Of Justice evidence against of this president. Read the report. I thought that was really powerful. And what he also said going out the door was that now its up to congress. So i dont deny, it will be circuslike, it will be carnivallike. We have seen the lack of credibility of the questioning that comes from some of my colleagues on the republican side in judiciary. It will be a circus. Theyll get sound bites on fox or whomever they like. But more importantly what will come forward are facts that the American People need to know. The American People dont have the time to read a 448page report. So we need mr. Barr to come before us and paint the picture for america of the damning relationships between the minions in the trump world and Trump Campaign and Trump Administration and the
extraordinary bad conduct of this president in trying to obstruct the investigation into his behavior. We need mr. Mueller to come forward. Hell come forward credibly. Theyll throw mud, but i am certain that between the questioning on our side of the aisle that will be robust and professional and based on fact and not based on foe, that the American People will begin to see this story. Thats what has to happen. I just think, congresswoman, thats well said. I can just see jim jordan with his white shirt, rolled up, ready to go into action. I read peggy noonan from the wall street journal. Shes calling for censure now, something short of impeachment. Something that might even pass muster with republican senators. Well, either impeachment is something that democrats think is something that needs to be wielded where you have a corrupt and Out Of Control president , or they dont. Whether its politically
palatable or not. But that aside for a moment. One reason i think stories like this are important beyond the potential partisan thee atrics that it does show and underscore the overriding ideology of trumpism isnt immigration, its not the border wall, its not Family Separation or anything like that, its fielty to donald trump. They wouldnt be doing this if Mueller Didnt Come Out and cross the president. He did and he must pay in a humiliating way and thats why theyre doing this. You and the congressman have made it clear that the majority in the house will be able to handle the drama. But these characters, joe digenova, Rudy Giuliani, these are street fighters. They have come out they have not been in public fight for a long time but they came out for this street fight. This is very gladitorial. And they seem to delight in the fact in fact they like that hes dignified. This has to be done. Even though they will do what theyre going to do and that will get play to a certain percentage of the American Public that, by the way, is not growing, its static. Everyone else, the independents, if you look at the polling right now, independent voters need to hear this story because democrats, if you look at the polling, are very supportive of impeachment. Its not even close. Thats true. If you drill down into the numbers, democrats are supportive of impeachment but its the independents that need to hear the story. They need to hear not only about the obstruction but about the pervasive attack on our democracy that included hacking into Voting Systems in florida and illinois, stealing voter data, spearphishing. What poll are you looking at. Its a harvard poll. If you google thehill. Com, they break it down bipartisan affiliation. The reason why theres a split right now over impeachment or why there isnt as much support for it is because its partisan. Independents dont support it. Democrats support it, republicans really dont support it. Congresswoman, whats it like in Montgomery County up in pennsylvania. You are home all the time. What are people saying . Well, thanks for asking me. I had a town hall, youll recognize the venue, at Montgomery CountyCommunity College this week. Sure. More than a hundred people were there in torrential rain so i was very appreciative they came. They wanted to know about substantive things, health care, Social Security and their student loan debt, gun violence was premiere among them. Within about ten minutes i was asked the question about impeachment. The room burst in applause when i said i had asked for the beginning of an impeachment
inquiry. So by that poll, it was 99 believe that we need to begin an impeachment inquiry, if not impeachment. I believe in process. I believe in starting the inquiry. The other thing i wanted to point out is not only do we want mueller to come before us, but i was talking with our committee today. Were planning to have some of the now more than 1,000 federal prosecutors who have signed onto the letter saying that mr. Barr misrepresented the report. You know, it will be very interesting to hear from them because, of course, they served in both republican and democratic president s, for republican and democratic president s. So it will be very important to hear from them. The other thing that i notice in the list of people we talked about today, whether its giuliani or barr or mr. Trump himself, they lack something. They lack credibility. And i think the American People see that. Wow, well said. Thank you, Congresswoman Madeline Dean of montgomery
county, pennsylvania. John meacham, i wish i had more time. John, are you for the Pro Censure Approach or not with peggy noonan . Where are you, john . Im not for it only because i think its barely a slap on the wrist. I think if it were to fail, he would claim more exoneration. Well said. I think and you know what i mean . I agree completely. If youre going to go for the king, go to the king. Thank you, john meacham, heidi przybyla. A normal president would be deeply hurt by a censure. This president wouldnt even feel the welt. Lets get the latest on that horror story in Virginia Beach. The police chief said 11 people were killed. Another six were injured. The suspect was shot and killed by police. So were getting that word now. Multiple sources tell wavy, a local nbc affiliate, that the
suspect was a disgruntled former city employee. Jim cavanaugh, what do we make of this it looks like totally domestic, one of those Postal Office kind of things, something to do with office attitudes and horrors or whatever they were. Your thoughts. Right, youre right, chris. Its a man choking on an empty grudge. Hes going to die in his horrible suicide mission, this time at the hand of the officers. But hes in there to kill everybody and be killed himself. Its an old formula. Hes mad at his employer. You know, we call it Workplace Violence, but its a sickness that pervades in america. The mad bomber of new york city planted bombs all over new york city because he was mad at con edison, his employer, because he had hurt his back so he decided to plant bombs across
the city. So its an old formula for violence, its not new, but it keeps happening and happening and happening. The country getting a grip on this, Mental Health, firearms, suicide prevention, all those things come into play and security at these buildings. Jim, i have to ask you about this. Its like Domestic Violence. Is that one of the sins that we just live with in any society where people have access to guns and they have emotional situations and some people commit horror . Thats true. I dont think you can ever be free from it totally in a country as large as ours, but i think you can certainly reduce the amounts. There will probably be some Warning Signs, chris, that came out. Well learn days later how do you reduce it . How do you thwart Something Like this . Thwart it . Reduce it one way with better gun laws. See what access he had and how
easy it was to get. Unfortunately, its the first formula for the mass killer. Hey, ill just get some guns, big guns, many guns, lots of ammo, ill just kill everybody. Its so, s