To deal with immigration. But first the senior senator from arizona has endured insult after insult this week. At one point labelled songbird john, a reference to his time as a p. O. W. And while discussing votes for cia director gina haspel who mccain opposes, white house special assistant kelly sadler said, quote, it doesnt matter, hes dying anyway. Heres the white houses apology for those comments. Does the white house not think you need to condemn these remarks or comments again, im not going to validate a leak one way or the other out of an internal staff meeting. Are you saying she didnt say this . Again, im not going to validate a leak out of an internal staff meeting one way or the other. No, no, sorry, heres the white house apology. I think the remarks are awful, but lets look at this in context. That was said in a private meeting inside the white house. Thats not like you might Say Something really nasty about me off the air, it doesnt have
that much impact. You come on air and say it officially thats a problem. This is a private meeting inside the white house, it was a joke, a badly considered joke, an awful joke she said fell flat. You have to have some freedom to speak in a private meeting candidly. Weve all said things in a small group we would never say publicly. Thats not either. Something is clearly wrong with our control room. Hopefully this is actually the right thing, the white house apology. Those comments, whether they were made or not made, some reports in there obviously, too, about the internal workings of that meeting that just shouldnt be made public. Sadler reportedly did apologize to Meghan Mccain over the phone, but still hasnt followed through on a promise to do it in public. And Jonathan Swan at axios reports that huddled Behind Closed Doors with the communications staff, Sarah Huckabee sanders said sadlers comments were wrong. Quote, A Visibly Upset and furious press secretary Sarah Sanders told the group, quote, i
am sure this conversation is going to leak, too. And thats just disgusting, according to a source in the room. Cue, lindsey graham. Are you satisfied with how the white house has responded . No, not really. Its pretty disgusting thing to say. If it was a joke, it was a terrible joke. I just wish somebody from the white house would tell the country that was inappropriate, thats not who we are, and the Trump Administration and john mccain can be criticized for any political decision hes ever made or any vote hes ever cast, but hes an american hero. And i think most americans would like to see the Trump Administration do better in situations like this. It doesnt hurt you at all to do the right thing and to be big. Thats what they could have said publicly on thursday. Word for word, and simply ended this whole thing. Joining me on Set Chief Correspondent for the Washington Post dan balls, Washington Bureau chief for vice news,
shawna thomas. Political analyst eli stokols. Former advisor to jeb bush and former spokesman for boehner michael steele. And joining the conversation from nashville, msnbc contributor and author of the new book the Soul Of America, the battle for our better angels, historian john meacham. John meacham, i want to start with you. The overarching question i have every time this president says anything, it seems, about john mccain, is i wonder does he have any sense of history. No. I could go on if you like. [ laughter ] please, continue. No. No, i mean, its the antijoe biden answer. No, he doesnt. And remember, whats happened here is the presidency has become a Tabloid Media Culture where you throw a punch. If somebody might seem to be about to throw a punch at you, you punch again and again and
again. Its the war of against all. Thats the way trump views the world. Its the way the white house unquestionably views the world because every white house takes on the characteristics and character of the person at the top. Its inevitable. Every, every court since the dawn of time has reflected the character of the person in charge. And unquestionably, this view of senator mccain i think one of the reasons weve had a couple of shots at mccain is because mccain is in many ways the antitrump. He is someone who has served virtually his entire life. Hes a flawed guy. Hed be the first one to tell you that. He has a great sense of tragedy, great sense of history, and understands that hes going to get some things right and some things wrong which, therefore, makes him the untrump. And so i think that President Trump looks at that, i think his people look at that and it makes them uncomfortable. I think the bush family is a lot
like that for them. They see other people doing what they, in their heart of hearts know they ought to be doing, and i think out of that resentment comes this kind of really, not inexcusable because if the person apologized we could move on. But the incapacity to admit you made a mistake is a troubling thing. Dan balls, one of the things that was mentioned also in Jonathan Swans reporting out tonight is this idea that we learn more about what goes on behind the scenes in the Trump White House through these leaks than we would in weeks, months, years of another administration. Having covered many of these are you surprised by the degree of information that comes out of the white house and allows us to learn about things like what was said . Not so much any more. I think at the beginning we were all surprised by how leaky this administration was, certainly this white house was. And part of the reason in the early stages as you well know was that you had real infighting, real faxctional
problems and they were trying to settle it in a public way by leaking. Supposedly that was going to begin to end when john kelly came in. It didnt. It is part of the culture of this white house. People, people want to be able to separate themselves from some of the things that are going on and, therefore, they take it out in public, not by standing behind their own words, but by leaking to reporters. And it is a constant stream which continues to put the white house in a terrible light and situation. And shawna thomas, now that this of course is out there, the white house seems to have a responsibility to be held accountable for this. But they dont seem to agree. No, they dont seem to agree. And i think one of the things that we were talking about, we say a lot of uncomfortable colorful jokes in the newsroom. All of us have been part of newsrooms where you say things you wouldnt want to say in public. When they come out publicly we have to answer for it. The company has to answer for it. Thats the thing that happened here. Something got said, it was off color, and this white house knows its out there. They have not actually said it didnt happen. They apparently arent going with that defense. Therefore they have to Say Something. Instead of us talking about the fact that President Trump helped get three people out of a north korean prison this week, we are starting the show off talking about the fact they denigrated someone who is a war hero. So, theyre getting in front of their own message, too. Right. Michael steele, i have to say ive had well, close to a dozen conversations with republicans since this happened, and republicans on the hill who, yes, john mccain has i could use some very colorful language to describe the feelings people have had at various times about john mccain, what he said, what he did, voted for. Hes kind of a guy who one minute can be joking and really fun, and the next minute can be essentially biting your head off in the hallway because you asked him what he deems to be a stupid question. But right now the entire, the
entire hill is, you know, thinking about this man in the terms of the small place where they work and really lion izing the contributions hes made. Republicans are so angry at the white house for this. John has lived a life of service. They are upset about the leaks. He is an american hero, he is a states man, and he is somebody who deserves respect. At this point, this is the wrong cross to die on. This is a ridiculous position for the white house to stick with. They need to apologize. I could hear my fellow episcopalian. You want to jump in there . There is an old rule, you have to pick which hill to die on. Is this really the hill the Trump White House wants to take bullets on . You just made a really interesting point, which is theyre not calling this fake news, which is interesting. You know, and so i think part of it is they feel if they
apologize, maybe it opens the door to having to actually be accountable for what they do going forward. And thats a hell of a prospect. Is this possibly a situation, john, where, i mean, when Trumps Campaign first started everybody thought that his criticism of john mccake as a p. O. W. Would be the hill trump died on. The lesson they learned, hes not going to die on this hill. That is absolutely right. How you began almost always dictates how you finish. One of the first youre exactly right. One of the first moments where we realized kryptonite the ordinary political kryptonite Didnt Work On Donald Trump was the first mccain comment. And so in their experience, they can get away with taking shots at establishment figures because thats what the base loves. Eli stokols, your view . I think thats right. They look at everything, no matter how sacrosanct, whether its a war hero in the twilight of his life, a Gold Star Family we can revisit that
whole saga as well because its very similar. They dont ever apologize. As john said a few minutes ago, the culture, the organization that starts from the top. Donald trump before he was ever in politics decided im not that kind of person. Im not going to apologize. Nobody at the white house will either. And its true, they have were in this place now of almost absolute tribalism in our politics. And i think that they believe that no matter what theyve said or done, theyre just going to turn around, weapon eyes it, theyre going to look at this and say the elites are trying to scold us, theyre getting on their moral high horse. It is quite a parallel to draw to that situation last summer when you had the Gold Star Family, the president made the condolence call. They said he was upset. John kelly tried to come out and explain it, ended up exacerbating the entire thing by attacking the congresswoman, lying about her background. They just have a hard time getting out of their own way because the president himself can never admit that he or anybody on his staff is wrong. Uhhuh. In that Axios Sneak Peek tonight we were talking about earlier, Jonathan Swan asked some of what he calls the white houses most
prolific leakers and he asked them what motivates them to do it. One of senior officials told him that they usually come after someone loses an internal decision and they want to jen up some public blow back. You have to realize that working here is like being in a never ending mexican standoff. Everyone has leaks, pointed at each ooh its only a matter of time before someone shoots. There is rarely a peaceful conclusion so you might as well shoot first. To cover my tracks, i usually Pay Attention to other staffers i had i don staffers i hdioms and that thrs it off me. Shawna . You dont want to get blamed for something. For sure. But you remember, you covered the Obama Administration as well. We talk about how this white house gets angry about leaks. In the Obama Administration, leaking was a cardinal sin. But it also didnt happen as much. And they would argue, i think, that its because people believed in the boss and they would probably explain the leaking in the Trump White House as in some ways a lack of loyalty. Do you think thats Whats Going On . I think also the obama white house, or people who had worked for president obama, would say that they had each others backs as well. They didnt feel like they were in a, to use the term that Jonathan Swan used, mexican standoff. That they were all in it together and they also, i think, had a pretty good idea of what the boss wanted to achieve with specific goals. And there wasnt as much confusion about what he would want and, therefore, there wasnt as much to leak about, about like internal disputes. I think there is a lot of confusion even when the president talks and tweets, we who are publicly who are publicly getting his information, we dont necessarily know what he wants. And if they dont know what he wants, they dont know who is backing them up. They dont know if theyre backed up by people they work with. It creates a situation where
everyone is scared and kind of willing to talk. I dont sense that with the Obama Administration. I think there is possibly a sense you can use leaked information to influence the president because it gets on television. Right. You get a president who reads News Coverage but not internal memos or documents or goes to meetings and all this. If youre trying to achieve a policy result, the media is often the best mechanism. People were leaking to espn or Something Like that, i dont know. I think so much of this leaking has very little to do with that. Its not like these are Policy Debates and people are arguing those positions. This gets personal. It gets nasty. Ugly. Its petty. And i think the other factor thats true about this administration compared to many others is that most of the people in the white house do not have a long history with donald trump. Most white houses certainly in the first two years are populated by people who had gone through a campaign, who had developed a bond among themselves, who had developed a loyalty to the canndidate and then the president. That is absent in this
administration and in this white house and i think that contributes to it. And weve seen 40 or Higher Turnover already in this administration which is unprecedented. And the dysfunction, the backbiting i think is a big reason for it. Still to come, a historic moment for the president and korea. That was overshadowed by everything we were just talking about. Plus im going to talk with congressman Joaquin Castro who sits on the less than functional house intelligence committee. And as we go to break, a quick note from the sports pages Vladimir Putin scored five goals in his annual exhibition hockey game. Thats down from seven goals last year. Could the 65yearold forward be losing a step . Kasie d. C. Back after this. Mom . Dad . Hi i had a very Minor Fender Bender tonight in an unreasonably narrow Fast Food Drive thru lane. But what a powerful life lesson. And dont worry i have everything handled. I already spoke to our allstate agent, and i know that we have Accident Forgiveness. Which is so smart on your guys part. Like fact that theyll just. Forgive you. Four weeks without the car. Okay, yup. Good night. With Accident Forgiveness your rates wont go up just because of an accident. Switching to allstate is worth it. Which is the only egg good eonly egglands best. With more farmfresh taste, more vitamins, and 25 less saturated fat . Only egglands best. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. You wouldnt accept from any one else. Why accept it from your Allergy Pills . Flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. Flonase. Woman our tempurpedic gives us the best nights sleep ever. Nows the best time to experience
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