welcome back to this special edition of "hardball," i'm chris matthews up in new york. the results are beginning to come in from puerto rico. 67 delegates at stake including 7 superdelegates. the democratic contest is heading toward the finish line of course and hillary clinton is within striking distance of the nomination itself. according to nbc's count clinton has fewer han 60 delegates away from winning the democratic nomination for president. today she called the senate -- or called on senator bernie sanders to help her unite the party after several big primaries on tuesday. they're coming up. sanders is threatening to fight it all the way to the convention in philadelphia. kristen welker can covering the clinton campaign in vallejo, california, tonight. kristen tell us the hopes of hillary clinton. let's start with the rosy scenario. is there a rosy scenario for party unity at this point? >> i think that the clinton campaign is concerned about that quite frankly, chris. that's why you hear secretary clinton and her surrogates increasingly calling on senator sanders to work with her after tuesday to try to achieve that. in terms of rosy scenarios this would be as rosy as it would get for secretary clinton. a win in puerto rico, a win in new jersey which is expected by the way and then a win here in california. this is the state that has the most delegates. important to point out, it's possible that she could clinch the nomination before all of the votes here in california are counted. but california is significant, chris, because if she wins here, she essentially takes away all of senator sanders' arguments for staying in the race and contesting the convention. however, if senator sanders loses here, if he starts to get close to her with pledged delegates he will likely make the argument that he should stay in the race and fight all the way to the convention. that is what he was saying today. he's been very insistent about that all weekend long and when you ask him about party unity he says, look, that's up to secretary clinton. the clinton campaign's argument has been let's look back to 2080 when secretary clinton conceded the race to then-senator barack obama and then worked with him toward party unity. but there's no indication that senator sanders is heading in that same track. but this is still a hotly contested race and the fight unfolding right here in california we expect secretary clinton to arrive here in vallejo shortly she's going to hold a conversation with community leaders chris. and of course this past week she went after donald trump very aggressively. it is likely we will hear her continue that tonight. >> looks nice out there. kristen welker, thanks for that great report. nbc's kelly o'donnell is in san diego with the sanders campaign. thank you so much. you just heard the rosy scenario from the clinton side. her reporting on it. that somehow hillary clinton runs the table, wins puerto rico tonight handily, wins new jersey tuesday night, wins california, and has a triumphant end to the primary fight. and then bernie concedes. >> well i think what we're seeing right now, chris, do not expect a concession coming any time soon from bernie sanders. and that really is different than other kinds of contested years when there's a bitter struggle through the primaries but ultimately for the good of the party one person steps aside. it does not appear that we're at that point yet for bernie sanders. in part because he has argued against the system being used within the party and says he will work very hard regardless of the outcome to try to change the nominating process. he is, of course, a longtime independent and running within the democratic party. so he's got a lot of tension with some of the democratic party elites. what he is looking for is to make the argument that he has brought an energized type of voter in to the process, many of whom have not been at all interested or involved in politics along the way. bringing in new voters. bringing in younger voters and that's not just the college age first-time voters, but those under age 45. now of course winning in california is essential to the argument he's trying to make. that he has a case to make at the convention. he says that this process really includes the piece of those superdelegates who typically hold off as somewhere around the country, they're part of the democratic party apparatus. their role is to give sort of the establishment a voice and who ultimately becomes the nominee. sanders argues that their role, even if they've committed to hillary clinton at this point, is to make a decision at the convention. and so he's saying in the five or six weeks left, momentum should be a factor. he being knowledges it's a steep climb, it's difficult, the math is not in his favor but he's not giving up. now if things do not go his way in california, or in puerto rico or the other contests that remain, perhaps we'll see a different bernie sanders because he certainly does not want to dampen interest in voting in california at this point. he's doing sort of a big wrap-up of big-scale rallies. that's why we're in front of a stadium where he will have celebrities and musicians for a concert and rally later today. so from sanders, at this point, he is still in the fight, not willing to give it up, and of course the clinton people see the numbers differently, sanders is saying, don't rush this, wait until philadelphia, and the convention. we'll see how that holds up. >> thank you so much kelly o'donnell. bread and circuses continue to be the appeal of all candidacies. let's get an update from puerto rico. how are the irregularities going at this point. >> the irregularities are ongoing, chris. officer rodriguez is still quarting the gate because the presidential ballots are still inside counting them by hand. they contracted the number of polling places. the local party here. it's not a democratic party or republican party they have local parties with different names roughly aligning with democratic and republicans. they were in charge of the vote here in san juan, they cut the number of polling stations and we had these long lines, because people weren't going to their usual polling station they had to be checked in by hand and then they voted by hand. those ballots are being counted in the most painstaking fashion. two observers. ballot comes out, someone looks at it. that one is for hillary, do you agree? they put it in a pile. they do that for the next one. then that has to go to a second location to be recounted then. we were hearing results by 4:30, 4:45. some are trickling in. here in the capital we don't expect to hear actual results until 7:00 p.m., perhaps even later. as we were saying why is this happening? it's happening because puerto rico overall is racked by debt, more than $70 billion. schools are closing. hospitals are shutting down. funds across the board are potentially being pulled back. they can't even fund mosquito workers here at the height of the zika crisis here in puerto rico. so of course it's not surprising that at the same time the party would say, elections cost money and we've got to roll back and as i was saying earlier that could be trouble from hillary clinton from a perception point of view. she's got to unify this party, convince sanders that this has been a fair election, that she won it fair and square and we all need to get together. they're not going to be convinced when they see people turned away. what if more people got in? would they have voted for bernie? would it be a different outcome. >> tony decoppola in puerto rico. let's back with msnbc's steve. nomenclature. why do you keep calling pledged delegates when they're won delegates. they have been won by one candidate either in caucuses, conventions or actual primaries. call them won, and then we maked the pledged superdelegates make some kind of sense. pledged doesn't sound like won. like in a fraternity. >> you try to draw the distingsz between the superdelegates whose commitments are not etched in stone. the pledged delegates mean under the rules of the party they vote for this candidate at the convention. that cannot be changed. the superdelegates can make a commitment but it's not etched in stone. bernie sanders has been saying look, she will have right now this is where she stands with pledged delegates. she's not going to hit this number the magic number you need just with pledged delegates so there's a chance, he's saying, to make these superdelegates become budge from their nonbinding commitments. now what's interesting is we've been in this situation twice before. the modern era of presidential primary politics. where we got to the end of the primary season and nobody had the majority just with pledged delegates. how did it play out in both of those cases? let's take a look. go back to 1984. around this time, basically same month, gary hart was running against walter mondale the former vice president. mondale had the most pledged delegates from the primary process, but he did not have an absolute majority of all the delegates, just from that. so gary hart said the day after the 1984 primaries he said, welcome to overtime. he said i'm going to spend the weeks leading up to the convention trying to get those superdelegates to change their mind. do you know how many he flipped in those weeks? zero. he had polls that showed him performing better against ronald reagan, the incumbent president, than mondale. didn't matter to the superdelegates. gary hart, he tried to go to the conveengs, tried to peel them off. he couldn't do it. we saw it 2008. this sam point in 2008 heading into the final primaries of that process, hillary clinton could not catch barack obama when it came to pledged bell gatts. but, barack obama was going to need superdelegates to hit the magic number. and hillary clinton was saying those superdelegates should vote for me instead for two reasons, one she said because i'm winning the popular vote. if you add up all the primaries and caucuses, i have more votes than prk brk. that was a disputed claim because it was very close. florida, michigan if you remember any of this, barack obama's name wasn't on the ballot in michigan that year. she also said electability. but her campaign realized as soon as those primaries ended in 2008 they were going to have as much luck flipping superdelegates as gary hart did in 1984 so she backed out of the race as soon as it ended. >> do you think this fast or do you rehearse a little, steve? because i never heard anybody think this fast. >> you know what i do? i think about this stuff in my spare time. >> like people bowl when they sleep. thank you, steve, you are so fast. steve kornacki. nbc news is now characterizing the puerto rico primary as too early to call. we have a characterization there. too early to call. but we can say that hillary clinton leads. today hillary clinton said after tuesday's contest senator sanders has to work to unify the party. let's watch the secretary. le. >> after tuesday, i'm going to do everything i can to reach out, to try to unify the democratic party. and i expect senator sanders to do the same. and that we will come together and be prepared to go to the convention in a unified way to make our case, to leave the convention, to go into the general election to defeat donald trump. >> senator sanders was asked about his message to the bernie or bust crowd to get them to support clinton. let's watch his reaction. >> if i am not the nominee, and we're going to fight to become the nominee, it is secretary clinton's job to explain to those people why she should be -- why she should get their support. and that means she's going to have to address their needs. secretary clinton is going to have to make the convincing argument to them that how could it be that she's getting huge amounts of money from wall street and other powerful special interests and she is going to stand up and fight for them. >> but no matter what are you going to work hard to make sure that donald trump loses, and the democratic candidate, whether it's you or her -- >> yes. >> wins? >> yes. >> wow. let's bring in my panel now. april, white house correspondent for american urban radio networks and msnbc contributor joe walsh of the nation and jonathan altar of the daily beast. where's this thing stand without taking any stand hillary versus senator sanders does it look like senator sanders is going to make it easy on hillary or make it very tough on her as we approach philadelphia? >> i think the most important word -- >> starting here. >> okay. here's what's going on. i've talked to people in the bernie sanders camp and they have said that hillary clinton has to do what barack obama did to hillary clinton back in 2008. reach the hand out to bernie sanders and say let's unify. it's not just about paying off debt. >> how about buying the agenda of bernie sanders? >> and they said -- >> then he won. >> wait a minute. they want her to go to $15 an hour for jobs. >> he won. >> they want her to be more clear on trade. because shes is to the left of trump on trade. she said they want her to be clearer on medicare. also when it comes to criminal justice -- >> medicare for everyone? >> they want -- they say that donald trump is less -- >> these are concessions, total concessions. >> this is what i'm hearing. and also she's still pro-death penalty and they say that she's still hawkish when it comes to war. >> how did the death penalty come up as an issue? >> they are pulling everything up. they're saying -- >> they're moving the goalposts. yeah, that's what i'm told. >> there's going to be a platform fight. they have a progressive majority. clinton put some progressives on her platform representatives. so they're going to have some -- they're going to have some power on the platform. they're not going to get those concessions from secretary clinton herself. and i don't think that they should. she has -- >> you think cornell west will win on the middle east? >> no, i don't think he will. but i did think it will be a battle. i'm sorry didn't mean to jump in before. the most important words in that bernie sanders interview was the words at the end, yes, yes i will work hard -- >> he was pushed to that. >> but that is the bottom line. >> let's talk history here. i think there's been cases where it's worked to go right to the end. ronald reagan and the other party forced gerry ford to beat him in a roll call and ford let him speak. isn't it better to lose the roll call, fight to the bitter end, then go up there and give the speech of your life which is what bernie could do rather than buckle and get the monday night speech with elizabeth warren sharing the pulpit with her and having thrown in the towel? >> i think you're right. first of all the difference between 2008 and now is when obama extended his hand to hillary >> yes. >> they agreed on almost every single issue. >> but because she understood for the betterment of the party -- >> there were no concessions to make. now they're skg hillary to make these concessions. >> right. >> to your point, my sense is that sanders feels like he owes it to his supporters to go all the way to the convention, have his name placed in nomination and give that big speech. the question is what happens after he has that moment. >> when does that day come monday or wednesday? do they throw in the vote monday morning and get it over with or let him fight the whole week until wednesday night? >> i think they would do it monday or tuesday. the question is what happens afterwards. if he's like ted kennedy in 1980 who goes up on the stage with jimmy carter after his loss won't even put his hand up and essentially sends a message that he wasn't all in for jimmy carter, that could be very harmful to the democratic -- >> and by the way jimmy carter's people, i was a speech writer, right up until kennedy gave that barn burner of a speech, stu was trying to talk to kennedy and make a concession on the jobs plank. carter was trying to concede. kennedy didn't want him to concede. kennedy wanted to give that damn speech. >> they were bitter. and the question is will the sanders people be better? the question in the short-term for california voters is is this election different? we're not talking about running against gerald ford or bob dole. >> what's the stakes in tuesday night -- >> the democrats have to decide do we want to beat donald trump? do we want to prevent a guy who is going to wreck the constitution from becoming president. >> john, you first, what mistakes tuesday night? if bernie pulls an upset tuesday, does he go all the way to philly? >> i think he's likely to do that anyway to give that -- >> now he's -- >> when she wins new jersey, which she's very likely to, at 8:05 -- >> i know all this -- >> basically -- >> he's going -- >> at that point the ee dbz -- >> they'll say that's cheating. >> i think he fights on if he wins california. i don't think he's going to win california. >> who's going to win? >> she's going to pull it out. she went back, she doesn't go back to places. remember kentucky. she didn't go back and put all this time in to come away with a loss. >> and bill's got some juice. >> and they also have the ground game. he doesn't have the money anymore for a ground game. actually matters in the cities. >> who benefits if the networks make the call at 8:00 eastern time with three hours' left to vote. we all know from teddy white years ago democrats vote after 5:00 at night. they come home from work, they get to the polling place. what happens, does bernie get that advantage or hillary get that advantage in early call on the radio? >> it's very tight but i think hillary would get it. >> does she get the advantage? >> i believe she does. just before tuesday she's got this mega fund-raiser going on in the hollywood area with all the celebrities. once you have the star power, if he does eke out a win, he's got leverage, he will take it to philadelphia and make her -- >> if he wins. >> zero chance for superdeleg e superdelegates. they're democrats. he's an independent. >> they go with a winner. >> that's theroblem they don't know his litics. >> where does hillary draw the line? let's talk the easy stuff. is there anything about arabic numbers that you can negotiate, is it nine minimum wage or 15? how hard does hillary fight the 15? >> not at all. >> you say throw it in? >> she's already -- >> she's already said -- >> gradual or right away? >> gradual. they're all gratd yule. >> okay what about health care for life as a right as part of a we used to call them red rights an actual right. you have health care medicare for life. >> i think what they will do is they'll have a plaque that's aspirational but without undermining obamacare. >> will they take that as aspirational. >> how they will take it is who is the person that sits there between them. someone who both sides really respect like dianne feinstein was there for barack obama and hillary clinton. they have to find someone who can negotiate and navigate those murky waters. >> marianne wright edelman? >> maybe so. >> a lot of history with hillary. >> what's the other one, there's osh security. big premiums, big increases in how much you get over what you paid it in life would they go for that. >> she'll agree to lifting the caps -- >> on wealthy people to pay for -- >> than the nonwealthy. >> i think she -- she's already come out for expanding. >> jumping ahead to $250,000 that thing? >> she -- >> it jumps from $100,000. to $250,000. it's important because you're losing a lot of votes there. >> she will not do that. >> education is going to be the other one to watch. he's for college for all, four years. >> free. >> free college. >> what does free college means? >> it means -- >> you can go to a state university anywhere in the united states. >> debt free? oh, debt free. >> very confusing proposal. he has a much clearer -- >> all take that free it means you graduate and don't owe any money. >> but what study. if you need help you get it, you get it through work-study. that's the difference. you have to put in six to ten hours -- >> the big argument -- how do you pay for it? >> wait until we get to the middle east. >> if hillary's really smart to distract from the platform she will follow trump's lead and not announce her choice for vice president until the convention. so it's more exciting. >> when you think the platform doesn't matter jonathan i know you're a historian, think about why he put cornell west on the platform committee if he doesn't care about making trouble. anyway -- >> he will but if the vice presidency aa bigger story than they can overshadow that platform fight by waiting until monday or tuesday -- >> you mean -- shake things up? >> april, thank you. you're not. joan, jonathan you're a serious guy. coming up, how hard will it be to heal the rift in the democratic party if bernie sanders makes good on his vow to take this fight all the way to the roll call? that's ahead and just a few minutes ago donald trump tweeted out this attack on hillary clinton. quote, hillary clinton is unfight be president, she has bad judgment, poor leadership skills and a very bad and destructive track record. change. that's with an exclamation point. by the way, it didn't do much for jeb. it's is a special edition of "hardball." it is extremely unlikely that secretary clinton will have the requisite number of pledged delegates to claim victory on tuesday night. at the end of the nominating process, no candidate will have enough pledged delegates to call the campaign a victory. they will be dependent upon superdelegates. in other words, the democratic national convention will be a contested convention. >> welcome back. that was senator sanders. vermont of course saying the democratic convention in philadelphia is going to be contested. that is his word. but are democrats partied for a messy party floor? a pollster and professor at iona college and nyu as well. and basil smikel, i love the way they spell it phonetically for me. >> executive director. i don't want to get into trouble. >> let me ask you about this, because i like floor debates and floor fights because they used to come out with the placards and have a demonstration for adlai stevenson. but people love the guy so let's have a demonstration. ronald reagan on the other party he fought right to the end, it was exciting. why have the guy, it's his last chance politically bernie sanders. he's not going to run next time. why doesn't he take it to the floor and stop trying to negotiate with hillary. why should she pretend she agrees with him? once she's in the white house all these deals are off. that she's going to give you socialized medicine or a red right if you will. these commitments don't mean anything. >> i think they do mean something -- >> under duress. >> i don't know -- i wouldn't say they don't mean anything. i do think they actually mean something. but the question is what are you actually going to be able to do depending on the kind of congress you have -- that's what hillary's saying. >> pretend you're going to be a social democratic? >> no i think there's going to be legitimate conversation. but at the end of the day and hillary's talked about this, look, we could talk about anything we want here. what are we going to be -- >> you know what bernie says? the difference between you and me is that you're inside the beltway and i'm -- he doesn't listen to that kind of argument. i tried that. >> he may not listen to that kind of argument but he'll get there to the convention. we'll have people on the platform committee. they'll have a conversation about it and democrats may accept what he's saying. >> i think he's a true believer. he doesn't want to be known as a guy who went to almost the end and gave in and became a regular democrat. i don't believe he's going to run for re-election in vermont as a democrat. he's going to run as an independent again, a social democratic socialist. that's why he is. why should he change tune at this point in his career after 40 or 50 years of being bernie sanders? >> you know he has a real concern that hillary clinton is going to say she is actively engaged in these negotiations, and move to his side and he knows the reality is that's not going to happen as basil mentioned they're not going to have a congress that's able to fulfill any of these -- >> a year ago hillary was for the trade bill. >> exactly. >> so what -- >> the lame duck section of congress this year where is hillary on the trade bill? we don't know. >> back to the point i'm and the point that was made earlier it's not i don't want to make give the impression that hillary clinton doesn't agree with a lot of what bernie sanders is saying. i think there's more agreement than disagreement. >> where's the agreement? >> even in terms of college affordability. i was with her in the senate in 2002. she was talking about college affordability then. it's not like there are these issues -- >> there are huge gaps between -- >> who in washington is going to decide what tuition is going to be paid to each of these states? you're giving washington the authority to pay each state. this is an amazing idea. how do you do it? >> there are real difficulties. and she's raised this. -- >> but there's a huge gap between bernie sanders and hillary clinton -- >> i want to ask you is bernie going to throw in the towel right after california, at the convention or sometime in september? when he's going to give in and say i'm with hillary? >> i think he's going to probably do it after the convention. >> mr. executive director? >> after. >> after the convention? >> you guys are tougher than you talk. when i ask you the bottom line you're tougher than bernie. basel sh michael and jean dano. hillary clinton looks past bernie sanders and towards donald trump. that's coming up next. this is "hardball." welcome back. of course we're watching the returns coming in from puerto rico tonight. it's too early to call but hillary clinton is in the lead. let's check back with msnbc's steve kornacki at the big board. >> we're starting to look ahead to trump versus hillary clinton. what would it take for donald trump to actually beat hillary clinton? we always look at demographics. in 2012 obama versus romney. republicans saw romney won big among white voters. a 20-point marnlen over obama. and obama won huge among nonwhite voters. republicans looked at these, particularly the obama advantage among latino voters and said this is a group that's growing in size so the conclusion from the professional and political class of the republican party after 2012 was if we're going to compete in 2016 we need to be more friendly to latino voters. more friendly to nonwhite voters. we need to do immigration reform. we need to get this number up. it's the only way back to the white house. here we are four years later. donald trump is going to be the republican nominee. that is not his theory. donald trump's theory is not going to get a bigger share of the latino vote. it's this. he this he can drive up the support that mitt romney had among white voters. this is where things get interesting. because a lot of republicans assumed after 2012 that that number that romney got there, 59-39 he was basically maxing out what republicans could get from white voters. this is interesting. in our latest nbc news/"wall street journal" poll overall among white voters this is what you see. trump is basically on pace right here to hit what romney got. you know, some undecided voters here. look at this divide between college educated white voters and noncollege educated white voters. noncollege educated white voters trump leads by 27 points. this is actually better, better than mitt romney did among noncollege educated white voters in 2012. he won that group by 25 points. trump already up by 27 and you see that only adds up to 89. some undecided there trump is driving up support to levels that even mitt romney couldn't reach among white voters who don't have college degrees. but the flip side is a 44-44 tie among white voters with college degrees. the margin here in 2012 for mitt romney was 14 points. he beat obama by 14 points among white voters with college degrees. they are having the opposite reaction to donald trump. so what you see here, two groups of white voters basically right now at least going in opposite directions. noncollege degrees, they are moving more strongly into the republican column with donald trump at the head of that ticket. white voters with college degrees they are moving closer to democrats. you add that together and trump is basically at the level romney got in 2012 but he's got to exceed that level so he's got to improve with white voters, with college degrees if he's going to do that. >> if that's all true and i assume it is, maybe it's not, why do the numbers nationally show a 50/50 fight between trump and hillary clinton right now? >> they show hillary clinton ahead by i'd say three, four, five points. >> but that's so close it runs against all these numbers. >> no it doesn't. if you look at these overall this is the white vote right now, 52-36. what was it in the 2012 exit poll? 59 for romney. it was 39 for obama. so again i'm saying trump is basically where romney was, if you're where romney was you're losing by about four points. that's where trump is right now. >> let me try some other numbers by you. if this country was about 50% mine or if i back in 1980 when reagan won and now it's about 30% which is about 13 african-american, 13% hispanic and 4% asian-american, that's 30%. that means that trump has to get 70% of 70% to win. it is just an unbelievable goal especially with women involved who aren't so pro-trump. how can he get that? and yet when i look at the polls they're high 40s against high 40s. in other words he's in contention now suggesting he is getting about 70% of 70% which doesn't sound doable. >> what he would probably need, white versus nonwhite. a couple things to keep in mind if i can write on this right here. in 2012 are 28% of the elector tet was nonwhite. 72% was white. this was the highest nonwhite fig you're we've ever seen. one thing the republicans are hoping for here is that number will not grow in maybe even drops by a point this year if there is a dropout in turnout. >> yeah. >> the idea there being barack obama is not on the ballot anymore, maybe it doesn't grow. the second point is, especially if that happens, if you don't huge growth or significant growth in the nonwhite share of the electorate this time, if you grow the white vote to about 63% or %,hat's probably the target there for trump, 64%, he could win. if you have stagnant, even declining nonwhite turnout and 64% of the white vote that would erase the deficit romney had. >> you know what's scary about all of this it doesn't surprise any of us. this is the america we've got used to sitting around. we know how ethnic it's gotten, racial if you will. it's a very divided country, divided along racial and ethnic lines. and educational lines. it's scary. thanks steve. the name of the game for 2016. while hillary clinton is fighting a two-front battle she stayed focused on republican nominee donald trump over bernie sanders. she's tried to. several stops on the campaign trail out in southern california last week secretary clinton continued to paint trump as unqualified, unfit actually for the presidency. here's how she criticized trump university on friday. >> it has been a con game that has benefited donald trump but hurt so many people, including those who couldn't afford it. who were urged to max out their credit cards, spend down their retirement accounts so that they could go to this trump u. and -- that does sound appropriate, doesn't it? i'm going to have to use that more often. because if he gets anywhere near the white house you know what he's going to do, he's going to trump you. >> reminds me of bill clinton there. anyway, many observers say hillary clinton's campaign has been re-energized so how might she contin moving forward? joining me right now are joy reed, anchor of a.m. joy. tara dowdell is a democratic strategist and former apprentice contestant. and kaitlyn hughy burns is a political reporter for real clear politics. i remember growing up not in philly, long after i grew up we had a white candidate known for his sort of white attitude towards black people, frank rizzo. and he needed 87% of the white vote which was dwindling in philadelphia to win against an african-american opponent. he got 83%. there comes a point where you've got to get certain percentages of the white vote when you're up against union members, liberals, people who just don't like the other side it gets very hard to get to these numbers of any ethnic group. >> oh, sure and republicans have defined the 2016 race prior to the campaign starting, as they really needed to expand their support among a variety of different groups. the white vote even increases in the white vote weren't going to be enough. so all of these calculations assume that the electorate, the minority electorate is the same. i mean there are expectations that it could grow depending on turnout of course -- >> how about if president obama campaigns like mad for hillary clinton this fall? >> oh, i think that could certainly -- >> i think -- >> invigorate democrats. >> i think that's the october surprise if i haven't given it away. i think he wants her to win maybe more than she wants to win which is unimaginable. >> i think you know what steve was really pointing out is because we know that what's baked in is this growth in the nonwhite vote, pew has projected it to be 30%. the white vote is so fragmented. pew the white vote is fragmented. catholics basically split between republicans and democrats, union households they've started to go to blew color. jewish voters -- >> is that catholics including hispanics? >> no just white voters. >> i think they're going to -- >> the problem is blue collar white voters are declining as a share of the population faster than any other single population. and college educated rights -- >> and they know it. >> so trump has got to win over parts of the white electorate that are walking away from the republican party just like voters of color. you've got a really hard challenge. >> he got them during the primaries. he got a huge chunk of them. >> oh, yes. >> he feels dispossessed. he feels this country's changing, getting darker. he sees all that. but he also worries about his economic future. he worries about being able to get a industrial job. >> right. >> blue collar jobs wore you could work with sweat and a little bit of brains, you could make some money. those kind of jobs are disappearing. semiskilled jobs. machines are replacing guys like that. >> automation. unlike mitt romney blue collar white voters see donald trump as being like this. it's his demeanor, bravado. they see him as being aligned with them versus mitt romney who they saw as being too pa trigs. >> well he is. they were right. the tricky part wasn't him being caught as an elitist, the tricky part was trump convincing the regular guy on the corner that he's one of them. >> that he's done it effectively. >> is he faking it? >> i absolutely think so. >> tell me how you know. >> because he went to wharton. he brags about his intelligence -- >> he fits in the white college educated. you think he's one of them just because of that? >> well, absolutely. let me tell you why. >> he inherited his money. >> he went to wharton. he encouraged his children to go to ivy league colleges now you pooh-pooh it. >> why does he -- >> trump is a marketer. and in marketing is about connecting with your audience, understanding their desires, understanding their fears. >> let me ask you, tara. did he come up with this birther thing about obama being from kenya to grab that guy? >> absolutely. >> did he come up with this wall to get that guy? >> yes. >> did he come up with this ban on muslims coming into the country to get that guy? >> yes. >> okay that's marketing. >> that is marketing. because he saw what the republican party didn't see. he didn't need a dog whistle, all he had to do was whistle. that's exactly what he's been doing. whistling -- >> didn't humphrey bogart get that advice. just kidding. >> that's what he's doing. he saw that there was a lot more racial tension, he saw that the republican party -- >> was he less decent than mitt romney or didn't know how to play this game? >> i think that mitt romney -- >> would romney have done this if he knew the code? >> romney made the 47% mistake because he was in front of other pat rigs people. you've got to remember donald trump became a celebrity during the 1980s when the worship of wealth is what you were doing. you had a show called lifestyles of the rich and famous. he understands marketing his wealth to people who maybe don't envy it, but aspiring to it. the idea you could be a real estate mogul. >> he acts like the working class guy would act -- >> if they had money. >> i agree with you completely. he's not one of nice mitt romney guys who drives an old car. >> i'm learning so much. thank you joy, tara -- >> and huey burns. donald's attacks on a judge with mexican heritage are earning him criticism from his fellow republicans and now he's weighed on what he'd think if the judge were a muslim. that's next. i know you'll be surprised by this. you're watching a special edition of "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." donald trump ramped up his attacks on that federal judge in the case against trump university saying the american-born judge is treated unfairly because of his mexican descent. today on face the nation donald trump doubled down on his attacks and also said that he didn't necessarily think a muslim judge would treat him fairly either. >> -- a member of a club or society very truongly pro-mexican, which is all fine but i say he's got bias. i want to build a wall. i'm going to build a wall. this judge has treated me very unfairly, in a lostle manner and there's something going on. >> if he were a muslim judge would you also feel like they wouldn't be able to treat you fairly because of that policy of yours? >> it's possible, yes. that would be possible. >> joined by david cornyn of mother jones and democratic strategist and heidi from "usa today." let me ask you for an explanation, i'm not sure there is one besides psychological here. if you make an enemy of a group, in this case, mexican-americans and liberals and others who support them and perhaps other hispanic people in this country who have that kind of heritage, if you know you've made an enemy of them, made them hostile to you because of what you've said and the positions you've taken on the wall of course and deportation and 10 million, 11 million people who are here, if you get that reputation for being host toll a group and then somebody shows up in a judicial position against you and you say well i must have made them hostile, because i'm seen as hostile to them. this gets very circular. and then when you talk about keeping people of muslim faith, however you would do this, i've never understood how trump intended to do it, we're going to keep them from visiting this country or getting visas to this country because they're of muslim faith, then you assume that people of muslim faith would resent you. it's the strangest thing. and then reporters ask him would you surprised if somebody you made an enemy of is an enemy of yours. this is weirdly circular. but your thoughts about the kind of conversations we're having here. >> it just takes away any preconception or guise that he isn't making a bratantly ethnic argument. we've heard this throughout the campaign in terms of different things he's said starting with barack obama's birther argument, but also going after jeb bush's wife. and this is just like throughout the campaign when he made the comments about mexicans, and immigrants, when we asked him about it, was always well, these are the illegals. i'm not talking about all hispanics, well this is going after someone who wasn't even born in mexico or wasn't born in another part of the country. he's an american. so it takes away any misconceptions that he isn't making blatantly ethnic argument. >> -- heritage don't like people like him. he's saying they have reason not to like me because of what i've said. let me go to david. this is to enwrapped in itself. he's almost admitting i've said offensive things to a group of which this guy is a member, therefore obviously he's going to resent me and he's saying the same thing about muslims. it's self-reverential, really. >> well, donald trump is speaking in explicitly tribal terms. some people can call it racist. i wouldn't argue with that. he's saying, i'm hitting hard. i'm people with mexican heritage and they're not going to like me. there's always a reason why someone rules against him, or criticizes him -- >> as a general rule we know as reporters that it is generally true that he's losing the hispanic community because of his positions. we know that. >> he doesn't seem to care. this whole notion that you heard from paul ryan and other republicans that you'd see a different donald trump or slightly more moderate donald trump in the general election has been disproven because again and again and again he is digging this hole deeper and he's just playing more to these tribal forces. i think ultimately that's how he cease the world. >> i agree with that. let me ask you about defense attorneys, steve. he's skkting like a defense attorney saying someone with a spanish name isn't going to like me because i said put the wall up against them. i don't want that guy on my jury. same thing if you're in muslim faith. i don't want that guy on my jury because i said keep him out of my economy. that's common sense. explain how this thing doesn't get to be ridiculous even as a conversation? maybe it does display ethnic prejudice but also displays the way he would act if he was one of those people. to me he's basically saying if he was a mexican-american i wouldn't give me a fair break. if i was muslim i wouldn't give me a fair break that guy's been hostile to me, donald trump. >> you're absolutely right. it's the ultimate narcissism. if you think about what's occurred in the last week of this campaign, the last two weeks, he's attacked a republican female hispanic governor. >> suzannah martinez. >> he's called out an african-american -- >> my african-american. >> and now this. muslims and hispanics. it's almost like he's trying to offend his way to the presidency. jeb bush had a line that you're not going to insult your way to the presidency, donald trump. so far he's insulted his way to the nomination. what's interesting to me is all these republican apologists who so far many of whom haven't called him out on this. paul ryan to his credit did, mitch mcconnell did. newt gingrich even did. but there's a lot of silence here in washington and it's telling. >> maybe the good news is it will knock newt gingrich off the chance to be vice president. that would be good news for the american people. thank you. the results are coming in slowly from puerto rico where hillary clinton holds a lead over bernie sanders. we've been saying that for awhile which must mean something. much more when our special coverage continues. show me movies with romance. show me more like this. show me "previously watched." what's recommended for me. x1 makes it easy to find what you love. call or go online and switch to x1. only with xfinity. much more ahead in our next hour here on msnbc as we await the results from puerto rico. the race is still early there. too early to call but hillary clinton is leading bernie sanders. you're watching a special edition of "hardball." the place for politics.