Thats happened on a number of occasions arguably in 1984 when Ronald Reagan had a first bad debate and nicole walsh was saying dick chain he a good debate after george bush in 2004 and joe biden having cleaned up against mitt romney. There are some things we know about this sort of historic contours of the way the Vice President ial debate can make a difference. The question is, does tonight fit either of those historic patterns, or did it make a difference in the way that is new skpand improved . The man who knows is nbc president ial historian, who joins us now from dc, michael. What was your overall take on how the debate went and whether
it was important . Well, you know you and i have talked about all of these Vice President ial debates and one thing that really runs like a t you have a Vice President ial candidate defending the president ial candidate over and over again. George push xli once said, im for mr. Reagan blindly. People thought he almost went over board in blessing things president reagan had done in the 1984 debate. What was missing tonight, what was unlike these other debates i would say what i was astounded by was the number of times that mike pence declined the opportunity to defend donald trump against tim kaines attacks. You know, kaine would talk about the attacks on mexican americans and women and so on, and pence would just sort of was almost suggesting that kaine had done something gross by even mentioning such a thing and sort of pence sort of flicked it away almost as if they were
discussing theanti antics of an in child. And why is it other Vice President ial candidates defended their candidate so zealously . Number one thats their job in these debates and number two they do it because if their ticket gets elected and this becomes Vice President , hes going to have to defend on the president to decide whether he has a lot to do or is separated from the office. Pence declined so many chances to defend trump suggested to me that maybe hes not too optimistic about the possibility of being Vice President , and therefore he thought it was ago to do that. Im remembering lbj telling Hubert Humphry he wanted a certain piece of his anatomy can we say this after 11 00 . I dont know. Its the saint name followed by paul. I think people can get. Wanted a certain bodily part zipped up in lbjs pocket. Thats one way to get loyalty from your number two. You mentioned 41 however, and this next format is town hall and that right. Sometimes favors as it did way very kind of tactile, politician from arkansas, sometimes favors the people willing to stand up and make a human connection. Bill clint objecton famous quot something wrong happens in my state good chances ill know their name. Both candidates are a little bit challenged on that front so that will be interesting to see how they are coached quite frankly. I think its going to make it more difficult for both of them but maybe more difficult for donald trump because Hillary Clinton has been doing these town meetings since she was at least elected senator from new york 16 years ago, so has some experience in that, and that brings up another thing, bryan, which is as i was looking at tim
kaines performance, i was guessing he went to Vice President biden and said what advice tough for me and joe biden may have said to him, look at the tape of my 2012 debate with paul ryan. I interrupted. It worked for me. And i think perhaps biden was bett better than kaine was tonight. Michael beschlos, someone whos council we are so proud to have around here. Thank you so much for staying up late with us. Thank you. And well get back whether you can use that name. If not well act it out. Thank you, michael. Another break for us. Our live coverage coming out of tonights president ial debate will continue on the other side. Around here, im lucky to get through
a shift without a disaster. Heads up you know what, dont worry about it. My bargain detergent couldnt keep up. It was mostly water. So, i switched to tide pods. Theyre super concentrated, so i get a better clean. I mean, i give away water for free. Im not about to pay for it in my detergent. Tide. Number one rated. Its got to be tide
i cant imagine how governor pence can defend the insultdriven selfish me style donald trump im interested to hear where why his running mate is not releasing taxes. I cannot believe governor pence supports the insult driven campaign. I cannot believe he would sit here we should create a deportation firm. Six times tonight i have said to governor pence i cant imagine how you can defend your running mates position after one than the next and on all six hes dont put words in my mouth. And yet hes asking everybody to vote for somebody he cannot defend. A selection of some of the tim kaine points and quotes from tonight. Im looking at what we always call the first draft of history, the associate the press write through of the debate by jaulie base and tom beaumont, democrat tim kaine aggressively challenged republican mike pence over a long list of Donald Trumps controversial positions and statements. Chris matthews posited this may break association i dont economical economically, intelligencia and nonintelligencia. And having witnessed the debate lawrence . I just want to go back to something that Steve Schmidt says bears repeating once every half hour or so. It is very unlikely this debate will make any difference in the course of the election and the outco outcome Vice President ial debates usually dont. As a kind of viewing experience afternoon hour and an hour and a half, but something will give on and that is the stuff the Clinton Campaign will be able to extract to use against mike pence, denying that he has said things he has already outside videotape. Those things those two things will be stuck together, possibly in a clinton commercial, very harmful to pence, the same thing using mike pences words, denying things donald trump has said. I cant think of a thing that you lift out of this debate and try to use as a Trump Campaign commercial, something you can pull out of tim kaines performance to use in the performance after the fact. Im not joining what may be a majority vote tonight in commentary mike pence won this debate. I dont think mike pence won this debate and i think he left material that is really rich for the Clinton Campaign to use and
look, i can tell you at 10 00 tomorrow night on the last wor i will be showing that video of mike pence, what he said tonight, and the truth of what he has said in the past and thats not going to looked if for mike pence. Ill like but im not sure what im going to find. Ill tune in but that spoils the surprise. Let me judge ask you. Youve been in this business long enough and youve seen how our jobs have changed in relationship to all the other ways that people get their news and information and process events like this in the news. Obviously the main thing thats happened over the course of the last few years is the rise of social media and the way people send each other stuff in addition to just getting from talking heads on tv. Do you think that changes the overall balance of whether you can afford to just win in the room by saying donald trump didnt say that, i never said
that donald trump never said that, if it does create the kind of liability youre talking about, for followup, for recut clips, and not just fact checking, but repackaging of the information to show those arent true. Its a huge factor much bigger than the president ial debate. The president ial debate not an 84 Million People turnout watching in real time. S it is entirely likely more people will see elements of the debate after the debate has occurred. See it on your show, see it on my show, throughout the network o line, friends sharing pieces of it on twitter, all sorts of things, and justaneck do thely. He said every civilian, when i asked if you were watching the debate, they werent. Every one of them were watching the president ial debate and not one of them planned to watch this one. Well see what the number is, and then you will lets remember
that way you kind of call a winner here is we have a scientific poll of the people out there who watched it, a scientific poll of the viewers not us, those are the people who will tell you in that poll who they think the winner is. Nicole wants in on this. I completely agree with everything lauren said in that if the commander in chief forum, largely perceived that Hillary Clinton had a rougher run than donald trump yet she fieldyld y much material about putin, the comment about our generals being reduced to rubble, she mined that for many days afterwards. I agree that far fewer were on this debate and the way this was received in the aftermath, some of that statesman like presence i appreciated as a viewer may be lost to some of the material. That was effective for the
moment. For the change of those watching. I have a different kind of reality check there may be a lot of material about on my pence, basically coming out of that, the things he denied that truly were said. Very few people will go to the polls to vote against mike pence. Or tim kaine. Theyre going to a lot of people are going to go and vote against donald trump or against Hillary Clinton. Its just the because this is yes think itwhy i think important construction that pence said he didnt say, that he didnt say that, it just gives the clinton another opportunity to say if they package it right, oh, yes, he did. He said he didnt say that, want to hear them say it again. It gives them another vehicle to rehash not just mike pence didnt tell the truth but heres reminder of the stuff the campaign doesnt want to defend. We have another fact check
from the pentagon. Our veteran producer ones enough about all things pentagon, regarded as our own joint chief, courtney is standing by. What can you add to the conversation . Just as youve been discussing this is one instant mike pence said something dont during the debate the Clinton Campaign could potentially go back and use old video of him that dispute what is he said tonight. There was a somewhat contentious back and forth between pence and kaine that supports putin as a leader. Governor pence said in arguably, Vladimir Putin is a better leader than president obama. That is absolutely inaccurate. And i just think a guy hes been stronger on the world stage no, you said leader. L penpence denied he called Vladimir Putin a leader but just last month listen to what he
said on cnn. I think its inarguable Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has been n this country. Theres no doubt pences running mate has said numerous flattering things about Vladimir Putin, calling him a great leader. Just last month at the nbc approval forum, he talked about the high approval ratings, and how Vladimir Putin says flattering things about him, so hes going to repeat that about Vladimir Putin. Mic pen mike pence has said some unflattering things about putin. Theres huge disparity when mike pence called Vladimir Putin a small and bullying leader of russia. This is a huge disparity from what weve been hearing from donald trump. It was exactly the language so many people have been wanting to hear from the top of the dikt f
ticket for so long that stood out as the best disparity. Again our National Reporter from the pentagon, courtney, thank you very much. Jamie carville has been listening to the conversation. On this point of what survives tomorrow, what survives by primetime on the Cable Networks who covered this sort of thing, whats your guess . I think the conservatives are really liked and the real iligi things he talked about, about antiabortion. Both sides will take what they want away from it and matthew will come and dominate the coverage and you know lawrence will show some factual clips and the Fact Checkers will be up all night and well take it from there. But come sunday night this will be little noted and long forgotten. James carville watching along with us. I just was amended a quote from
tim kaine on a rope line tonight. I feel good, look after i see all my buddy, [ inaudible ] it was intense, it was intense, but it was fun. It was fun. It was the fastest 90 minutes in show biz. Look at the time. Another break for us. Be right back after this. Senator, you whipped out that mexican thing again. He look you can defend it . There are criminal aliens who have come into the country illegally, perpetrator indicating violence you want to use mexicans on that . And he also said many of them are good people. You keep leaving that out of your quote and if you want me to go there, ill go there. Weve been talking about what lives on from this dwigebate, h this debate resinates into the next day as it competes from the next day, whether anything lives until the weekend when the next president ial debate s. One of the things that may live on is that line in part because at least for a little while this evening that mexican thing. Com was redirected to the Hillary Clinton campaign web site. So just as we got the guy saying what do you want a taco truck on every corner, and taco truck on every corner became a democratic
thing. The actual quote from trump some of them i assume are good people. Ive had occasion to write that. I remember and some of them, not many, but some of them, i assume are good people. You know one thing that struck me, tim kaine, it was hard to hear, because there was a lot going on, and everyone was talking at once. We went back to trumps taxes at least four times, maybe more, i think thats going to be a big thing this week and i think you know, these werent the opening salpo. Pences statement was hes going to release them, hes going to release them. People want that to happen before the elect. I have a question out of katies reporting from high boost strip in las vegas. So distill or reporting theyre going to show donald trump pences performance from tonight and say that, thats
what do that. How do you do that . You have to stick out with him and get him to watch the tape for 90 minutes and im not sure that from everything we know mr. Trump is going to do that. If you consider his debate performance theres no way to go but up so i think what i that want to show him is on any number of issues this is how you pivot, this is how you attack, this is how we drive a change message, this is how we talk about the National Security issues and the critique that can be offered of the obama administration. Theres fairly scathing critique to be made about president obama, and secretary clintons Foreign Policy records. Donald trump for whatever reason chose not do that in the first debate. I think as we listen to all the commentary tonight, i think mike pence did a fine job in the debate