Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Craig Melvin 20180821

MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Craig Melvin August 21, 2018 17:00:00

Manafort faces. The judge told them to get back to work though. So could it mean we are any closer to a verdict. But we start with some Breaking News. An nbc news exclusive. Former trump personal Attorney Michael Cohen is discussing a plea deal with federal prosecutors. One that could come as early as this afternoon. Thats according to sources familiar with the matter who spoke with nbc news. Tom winter is the nbc news investigations reporter who helped break the story. Our guest is a former u. S. District attorney for the Southern District of new york which is conducting the cohen investigation. Let me begin with you, tom, lay this out. What else did the sources say . How close the possibility of seeing some kind of deal emerge today . Sure. So ayman, as ellie can probably well tell you, no prosecutor counts their chickens and counts a plea deal until they have it. Then insigned. And the person is in court. I think were still a little a ways away from that, based upon Coverage of national and international news, including breaking stories. Prosecutors offices. I think a big way the Southern District got to cohen was by utilizing Evgeny Froeman Who was a state cooperator. So if the question ultimately is can the Southern District share cohen with mueller, absolutely. I would expect that to happen. If the question is what is your question as to what can cohen give mueller based on the reporting thats out there, we only have the sort of narrow view, but two things. One is the payments, the hush money to the various women who have made allegations about donald trump. That could be a Campaign Finance problem if those payments were not recorded as contributions. And the second, the big one to me is the trump tower meeting. And there was a reporting a couple weeks ago that Michael Cohen has information that shows donald trump knew about that meeting in advance. If so and, importantly, if it can be cooperated, Michael Cohens going to have some credibility issues. The prosecutors have their work cut out for them. If thats true, thats huge. Very quickly, from your experience in possible cases or at least working in the same office, how long would these negotiations have taken place . When would a conversation about a possible plea deal have been approached . Who may have initiated it . Both have to, you know, you need two to tango. Cohen needs to be interested in cooperating. It seems clear he is. Southern district has to be interested. They should be. And, you know, for what that process what ill be interested to see is when they go into court today, where are they in the Cooperation Process . Typically, the prosecutor will first debrief the person. And that could take with a guy like Michael Cohen, weeks, days on end. 9 00 to 5 00 days in a Conference Room until youre satisfied i know everything about this guy, i know what he needs to cooperate on. Its also possible theyre going to put in this plea now as a place holder and then do the cooperation after. I want to bring in msnbc analyst dan yny cevallos. Hes at the courthouse. Let me play the now infamous tape. A recording cohen made with then candidate donald trump discussing what cohen says was a possible payment to a former playboy model. We should note the trump camps disputes the characterization. When it comes time for the financing, which will be no, no. No, i got it. So what are the implications for trump . Wheres his vulnerable exposure so to speak . It would mostly be Campaign Finance law. Was he aware in contradiction to the statement he made on air force one, aware that these payments all right it seems like were having some Audio Problems with danny cevallos. Let me remind everyone, the two different comments Rudy Giuliani has made about Michael Cohen. Listen to this. He doesnt have any incriminating evidence about the president or himself. The man is an honest honorable lawyer. I expected Something Like this from cohen. Hes been lying all week or for two hes been lying for years. Theres nobody i know that knows him that hasnt warned me if his back is against the wall, hell lie like crazy because hes lied all his life. Michael cohen cooperating with prosecutors, the issue of credibility immediately jumps out. Youre probably going to expect to hear that case made stronger from people like Rudy Giuliani. How significance does this become . Its everything. What we saw from Rudy Giuliani is fairly standard stuff. When theyre trying to keep the guy in the fold, its hes a good person, hes not going to turn on us. Then, oh, hes a liar. Motivated by Something Else . Yes, so you see that all the time. But credibility is everything when it comes to cooperators. Michael cohens going to be a difficult witness to get a handle on. Ive put on cooperating witnesses who were murderers in murder cases and, you know, that can work because you have to back them up. You have to back up the witness with whatever you can. Cohen in some odd ways could be more complex to vouch for the credibility of then even a defendant in a murder case because he has so many dealings that are intertwined. Theres going to be an awful lot. Theres going to be a ton to sort out and back up. This is a guy who once said he would take a bullet for the president more or less and then turn around in an interview with abc to say he would at that point put family and country first. A lot of people interpreting he was beginning to distance himself. I believe we have danny back with us outside the courthouse. Lets try that one more time. Talk a little bit about what areas of trump life cohen could possibly connect for prosecutors. Well, Michael Cohen knew enough to negotiate deals with people that donald trump had affairs with, then certainly hes going to have a working trusted knowledge of Donald Trumps financials. That has to be what interest the government, the prosecutors, the Southern District of new york and as im sure they will share the information with the mueller team, possibly the mueller team. But when you look at this case, the situation with Michael Cohen, the likelihood that Michael Cohen was going to eventually enter a plea was essentially inevitable. The modern criminal justice system. The prosecutors hold the keys to that precious 5k1 motion for financial assistance. Michael cohen doesnt get the benefit of acceptance of responsibility at the plea, im sorry, unless he pleads. So it was a certainty that Michael Cohen would at least explore the opportunity to plea, but then the prosecutors had to make sure that they were getting the benefit of the bargain and thats why it likely took a long time. Not only to hammer out all right, so it seems like we may have lost danny. Let me ask you this question because you brought this up, very interesting. The federal judge has wrapped up the review of the evidence that was seized and the documents and what possible other evidence there may have been that were possibly subject to Attorney Client privilege. That process concluded today. It did. Did you think theres significance in the timing of that process being completed and this news you are breaking today . Im glad you asked. I think that i think that its an i dotting, a t crossing, if you will, but i think this investigation has been under way for a very long time. They were able to secure a judge approved warrant to get materials from attorneys, from his house, from his law office. Thats not easy. Thats not something thats thank you guys very much. Coming, up keep going with the Breaking News in the Paul Manafort trial, judge keeps the jury to keep working after they asked a question about one single count of the 18 he currently faces. Will it end soon . Plus, hacking democracy. The very latest sign that russia is actively and aggressively trying to affect our political system. And this time, its targeting conservative groups. And it does not look good. Thats the president s lawyers take on today on the likelihood of a sitdown interview with bob mueller. The very latest from Rudy Giuliani. Dear greatgreat grandfather, you made moonshine in a backwoods still. Smuggled booze and dodged the law. Even when they brought you in, they could never hold you down. When i built my family tree and found you, i found my sense of adventure. 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I sure do so Call Unitedhealthcare today and ask for your free decision guide. Oh, and happy birthday. Or retirement. In advance. Applebees to go. Order online and get 5 off 25. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. More Breaking News now. Dramatic new developments at the bank and Tax Fraud Trial of former Campaign Chairman manafort. On day four of deliberations, the jury has just indicated theyre actually struggling to reach a unanimous verdict on at least one of the counts he is facing. Theyve sent the judge a question about it. Delawnian has following the case for us. And doug burns joins me here on set. He is a former form prosecutor. Ken, talk to us about the question the jury asked the judge. How did judge ellis respond. Break it down for us. Well, first, i want to read the question to you, ayman, because the text is important. If we cannot come to a consensus on a single count, how should we fill in the verdict form for that count . So it suggests theyre not deadlocked on all of the counts so they wouldnt have asked the question that way. Theres also a possibility its more than one count. If you substitute individual or particular for that word single, it could mean theyre deadlocked on some of the counts and theyre trying to fill out the jury form. The judge asked them to look at the form again. And then he also gave them whats known as an allen charge. Which is language that you use when a jury is deadlocked on a particular issue to explain to them that, look, theres going to be no better jury, please go back and have at it again and try to come to some decision. Then they sent them back to the jury room. Danny, let me get your take on this. If the jury cant reach consensus on a single count, would this result in a hung jury . So they would be hung on whatever counts they cant reach an agreement on. But the judge also indicated after, to the lawyers, after he sent the jury back, that if they are remain deadlocked on one or more counts, he would ask them how many counts they had already reached a verdict on. And then he would consider taking whats called a partial verdict, which means to accept a verdict from the jury on only on those accounts on which theyre unanimous. And then they would have to determine how many of those counts are and whether its worth sending them back to continue deliberating on the remaining counts. Not all counts are equal in this indictment. We talk about 18 counts. But some have much greater impact on sentencing than others. So it really would depend on which specific counts the jury remains deadlocked, on whether they would continue deliberating. I want our team to put up this graphic on the question that was asked of the judge, because, daniel, i want to get your take on this. Do you believe the jury has reached a consensus on most of the counts or is it unclear from the note . Because the last part of that question i think some are speculating that what does the single decision mean for the rest of the verdict . And so some are interpreting that as possibly meaning there is a consensus on some of the other counts but one remains undecided. So i was in there for this whole back and forth. And my takeaway, and i think that the judge agreed with this, since he was discussing the idea of a partial verdict, is the implication is obvious that theyve reached a verdict on some of the counts. Its impossible to tell how many. They do use the word a single count. As ken pointed out, a single count could just be a different way of saying any individual count. So i think its a little too soon to speculate as to how many counts they are deadlocked on and how many counts they have reached agreement. I will say that from my reading of the jury questions we got last thursday evening, i got the sense that as most juries do, theyre moving through the indictment 1 through 18. And the first five counts are tax fraud. Their questions last week related to the second group of counts on Filing Foreign bank account reports. And the implication from that question is they had already reached a verdict on the tax fraud counts. So as i sit here and this is speculation trying to read the tea leaves, but i believe they have reached the guilty verdict on the tax fraught counts and the remaining deadlocked counts could be one or more of the Foreign Bank Account or the bank fraud accounts. Let me get your take on this. Its day four of the deliberations. Todays questions, some of this analysis weve been hearing from daniel and ken. How close are we to a verdict . How do you read what is playing out now . I think you are fairly close. I think the we cant agree on a single thing, but thats not the context of it, you follow me. In other words, we cant agree on a single account, jumps out as first we cant agree on anything. Then they say what do we do with that count on sheet clearly implies to me in my 30plus years of trying cases they have reached a verdict with respect to some of the counts. Its likely an agreement with the tax count. Remember, in the famous now four questions they sent out, one of them had to do with the fbar report and what level of ownership was required. If theres a deadlock, again, were reading tea leaves. I think theyve reached the verdict as daniel said with the tax counts and may have some deadlock with the, you know, other counts in the indictment. Okay so you may then be here asked to speculate a little bit. If youre bob mueller and youre watching this, what do you think in terms of day four deliberations, this question, the point that daniel made about the questions on thursday evening . How do you think its going from Robert Muellers perspective . He would be pleased. Because the alternative of course would be, you know, we really cant Reach Agreement on any of the counts, okay, a totally different note. That would have been really difficult. So the point is i think muellers probably relatively happy. And then real quick, lastly, as has been explained, i mean, you can take a verdict on counts where theres an agreement and you can ostensibly have a mistrial. So on that point, from the perspective that there could be could be census, would it necessarily be a victory or defeat folk bob mueller if he gets a conviction on a handful of accounts and not all 18 . Thats the threshold on this being successful for bob mueller or failure . You know, thats a tough question, ayman. Because a lot of it depends on which counts. Generally speaking from a prosecutors standpoint, a conviction is a conviction. They can make arguments at sentencing as it relates to the other counts. So in a normal case, this is not a normal case, 1 out of 18 is a victory. Theres a terrorism case in the Southern District of new york where the jury convicted on one of nearly 300 counts. Acquitted on the remaining ones. The defendant went to jail for life because he had the one conviction. So from a prosecutors standpoint, thats ordinarily how we look at it. From this in this case under these circumstances, all bets are off. Its such a politicized investigation. Im sure everyone will be spinning it in whichever way favors their own views. All right, gentleman, before i let you go. We just got an update. A third significant story of the day. This is according to prosecutors for Robert Mueller, attorneys for Michael Flynn. They have now updated the court on the status of this case. They say that, quote, due to the status of its investigation, the special counsels office does not believe this matter is ready to be scheduled for sentencing at this time. Both sides say theyll update the court in 30 days in i guess in or around september 17th. Significant here is Michael Flynns sentencing has been delayed. How do you interpret that . Does that mean hes cooperating, hes providing something valuable . The prosecution still has more they want from him . Once again, frustrating response. Not at

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