He says barr has begun describing new aspects of the Mueller Report calling it substantial but he didnt know how many pages. Barr telling the top democrat he wont meet the tuesday deadline to turn the report over, but they will get it in a matter of weeks. And were seeing this battle turn to how muellers findings will come out. You may recall ken starr when he sent the boxes and boxes of evidence, he was operating under a different law, but the bottom line is at that time findings were going to the house. As ive explained, what that meant was that congress was in charge of no the only the big decisions, but the narrative. And so through key moments, it was janet reno not exactly in charge, it was of course the congress dealing where this. Janet reno was not look at the questions of obstruction. Just imagine if ken starr had hand that had report to janet reno instead of congress and january net january ne january eitheet reno did a four letter. And imagine if the starr report had been provided only to janet reno and she stated her conclusion that clinton committed for crimes. And now a key person, this is why the internet lets everyone talk about it quickly, a key person from that probe also weighing in. Monica lewinsky replying saying if fing only. And she certainly experienced plenty of what happened in that investigation. Bottom line is we are now seeing a few days into the workweek that four page letter isnt going to cut it for congress to make an informed judgment about what the president did. And so were seeing lawmakers and Jerrold Nadler pushing on this tonight. And it makes you think of something that the r b star once song about, about a four page letter that she wrote to get out her feelings. She needed the letter to express herself. Four pages only. But this is a lot bigger than just someones feelings, even someone as pounimportant as the attorney general. This is about facts. Congress will need more than the four pages at least that is what were hearing from some. Democratic leaders. This is all about what she was going through and her father told her be careful who you choose to love. And the democrats still trying to be careful thinking about whether they put too much love or faith in the mueller investigation. But they wont know any of that until they get the results, the evidence from the mueller investigation. Lets get to our experts. Matt wiley and michelle goldberg. She has a new piece pointing that there is plenty of corruption. And what is your reaction to nadler president ing barr getting this date that is breaking news tonight, a date fdate for testi. And is this a fact that is within barrs ability to get obviously. And the important thing about the page length is that it shows you when barr released whatever he is going to release, it will basically show you how much is missing. Which is really important information. Can i just say i have watched the last few days this whole thing go down with such open mouth astonishment at the way the media, the way kind of everybody is so quickly capitulated to this fwrrame tha was put ford by the republicans. They clearly decided in advance that they were going to declare case closed and anybody who questions it is a conspiracy theorist and you democrats put way too much faith in bob mueller. I mean maybe. But the idea that anybody should put any faith in the four page summary by a guy who was chosen explicitly because he already said that he thought the obstruction inquiry was bogus and has a history of covering up republican scandals, i mean it is just astonishing that anybody would give credence to what they are doing. Isnt this a problem with washington and the media and the internet which is overreaction to overreaction. Weve reported since friday, and i have a break down of this later in tonights show, that when you finish a probe and you have no further indictments on conspiracy, that is a significant point and weve been reporting that. And that is good news for the white house. That is separate from all the other stuff that would be in the report including the obstruction analysis which we know according to trumps own Justice Department does not exonerate. Right. Yeah. What michelle said. The point here is there has to be a public accounting. And if as drumbeat beating around the sort of highlight that has been interpreted by are barr to the public about the findings in the Mueller Report, which as a lawyer which i see cannot establish conspiracy or coordination with russia, to me then the question is how close did you get to the evidentiary line or are you really, really far from the evidentiary line of being able to show conspiracy. That is something that the public has to know. And saying that you could not establish it does not tell us whether it was exonerated. Especially when in a different part of the letter you use the word exonerate. What does it mean to you that barr is make these choices . Because he can do this. He is within his lawful authority. But it seems like it could be a tell. For example, well put up on the screen, we know the length of the past reports. Starr report in 400s of pages. Iran contra, 500 some. And mueller, a question mark. And when we learn that nadlers best effort to press a person was to, quote, say it is very substantial, does that sound to you like over 100 pages . Why hide this . I think michelle called it. Fwraul, that is a fact that is a simple fact that technically you can do a freedom of information act request on to say just give me the answer to this fact. And as a legal requirement, they have to tell you the answer to that fact. And i think michelle is right, on reason not to share that fact is because you are trying to you are trying to obfuscate rather than being transparent. Remember at his confirmation hearing he said i believe in transparency, i think we should be as transparent as the law will allow. And we didnt have the page count. And i just got an update from the control room according to what nadler is furthering out is that he may now be in possession of a further briefing from barr on the agreement or on the expectation of not releasing it. So they both may know the page count now, but we dont. The American Public doesnt yet. And this goes also to the question that ive been posing. We have talked to witnesses and fact witnesses and players in in probe from the start. And some of them are controversial. And some of them are habitual liars. Sometimes people say why even talk to them. Well, this is one of those times this week where we look i think pretty thoughtfully on the money for having talked to them this whole time because it gave us insight. It gave us a sense of what they were doing. Some of them may have lied for no reason. Some of them may have been arrogant. Today mark talked about what he saw which was acts that really made him panic he says because they were so close to obstruction even if its of for no good reason. Meaning an accepts conspiracy for yoconspiracy absent conspiracy. Listen to this analysis. I pointed out that the statement was inaccurate and that there were documents that i understood there were documents that would prove that. Hope hicks replied to me when i said that there are documents and she said nobody is ever going to see those documents. Which made my throat dry up immediately. At that point i just said mr. President , we cant talk about this any more, you have to talk to your lawyers. To me the question is what hope hicks told mueller, right . I mean if hope hicks lied to she kind of said that she was going to lie. If she actually did lie, we know she lied to reporters, if she actually lied to investigator, then why hasnt there been a criminal referral for her. And so again, i think it is why we learn not just about it is so crucial that we learn not just why mueller decided not pursue obstruction, whether it was just because he thought that it should be left to congress which is the proper place. That is the proper place for these things to be adjudicated. But then we get all the details, all the things that he was weighing when he considered whether or not an obstruction charge might be warranted. Yeah, i keep getting stuck on this point that that when you hear that clip, it is really hard to understand why Robert Mueller did not say for political reasons i think that im not the person i dont think this is the process for resolution what you we couldnbe ing d indict anyway. And this is why we cant just have a filter of attorney general barr. But i think that they successfully at least for now create this had political sense that democrats this has been a big embarrassment for them and if they keep litigating this, it will seem like they are grasping for straws or going down rabbit holes. So i think that they have successfully created a dis disincentive to get to the bottom of what happened. I have to fit in a break. Thank you both. Coming up as promised, i have a special report on what we know and what we dont know about the Mueller Report. Some people are calling it confusing. Well get right down to the facts. And then my interview with two mueller witnesses who got married during all of this brought together by what they describe as an alleged spy who has since vanished. You both met this mehsud character who is now missing in action. And they dont really believe you guys . We end up thinking that we killed him. No. As a journalist, ill ask, did you have anything do with his disappearance . That is tonight. And as if that wasnt enough, eric holder is back. Our discussion that has not aired before about criminal justice reform, family separations and what democrats can do he says to make democracy more fair. Youre watching the beat. Watcht they see us as profits. Were paying the highest Prescription Drug prices in the world so they can make billions . Americans shouldnt have to choose between buying medication and buying food for our families. Its time for someone to look out for us. Congress, stop the greed. Cut drug prices now. 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Comedians have started saying the punch line is that all of this is really confusing. All i know is i havent been this confused about an ending since the Series Finale of lost. Really, it is kind of funny though. Half of america is upset that our president didnt collude with russia. Seems like we should probably be happy about that. Kimmel captures two points there. It is a good thing for america that there was no chargeable election conspiracy. And yes for some things may seem confusing. This is actually way more opaque than the show lost. If 3450u8lermuellers report is Season Finale of lost, then this goes to the most important thing about understanding muellers findings. We dont have them yet. But like any special counsel probe, weve always known that our two main legal mechanisms to assess what mueller found. Indictments which show where there was evidence enough to charge people criminally and the Mueller Report. And now tonight as of this moment people only have one of these things so far, the indictments. And they reveal everything mueller found that he could criminally charge. So when the probe ended friday, we knew anything that had not been charged was not getting charged by mueller. And that is a point we reported up front friday and throughout this busy weekend for legal news. He did not find chargeable collusion conspiracy. There was not a collusion conspiracy. It is time to acknowledge there is no chargeable collusion. That was all bike end and that was good news for trump. And for the nation. And we know that from the indictments. It also undercuts trump critics who were insisting that there was major a collusion conspiracy before the criminal evidence was in. It does not legally undercut any of the previous extensive work done by mueller who busted a crime spree by trump advisors ranging from trumps lawyer to his longest serving political adviser. Mueller so effective his work has already resulted in trump having the highest rate of indictments for his aides than any president ever. This fact coexists with no chargeable conspiracy. So the crimes charged on your screen are a reminder of why it is odd for trump fans to celebrate a lot about the probe this week. Trump busted for hiring more crooks than most president s ever do in two full terms. And that is just the american side. He also indicted 12 russians, an operation that the sitting president would still go on to deny. So if you take what we know from the indictments, there are still these major questions that remain that are mysterious like why so many lies if there was no conspiracy. Why would donald trump lie about russia . What was the breaks to repopres . They lied about the russians nonstop for two years. Nonstop lies. According to one of my colleagues there. And he makes a very good point. Muellers finished, so it makes you want to ask these people around trump why were you lying . I did that exact thing. I asked that question when we had the first person ever convicted in the mueller broeb probe on, George Papadopoulous last night for his first msnbc appearance ever. Do you understand why people watching this find this to be hard to believe you because during the probe, you were down playing all these russian contacts. Now there is no chargeable collusion and people are thinking why did you play it down . I tried to explain it. I was trying to distance myself from my i guess stupid activities and i didnt want to involve other people. Okay. For some lower level people the lies were to cover their quote stupid activities or mistakes. That is some people. For other Trump Associates lying to the government seemed second nature. When i pressed jerome corsi about his original plan to help roger stone Mislead Congress, he admitted their original attempt. They were going to lie. And he said he ultimately told muellers investigators the truth about that lie. How did they react to the other defense that you made on behalf of roger stone which you agreed to help roger Mislead Congress about how he found out about podesta . See in fact that was the there are two rounds of this. Round one, i openly discussed that with them and admitted it all. Because it was true. I was telling the truth. You were telling them the truth about a lie. No. Okay, yes. Yes. He admitted it lto lying. And then the more senior trump advisors convicted of construction crimes likelying to investigators or congress which were linked to coverups related to trump. Think of cohen or manafort. Michael cohen lied to congress about things that werent indicted in this probe such as how they sought business in moscow and lied to the public about it. Cohen also misled the public about things that were crimes. Michael cohen misled the public about what he later confessed to, a Campaign Finance crime. Now, until we see the Mueller Report, we dont know what mueller found about other things that people may have 2r50id hae cover up. For example, what drove trumps glowing embrace of putin in helsinki. What drove trump to braef tief russian officials about firing james comey . Why did trump personally dictate the statement that misled the public about the Infamous Trump tower meeting . Those things sound like potential evidence of obstruction of justice because those things are potential evidence of obstruction of justice. Trumps own attorney general concedes that they are evidence of potential obstruction of justice. Because in the very little that he did release about muellers report, he still told the world, a, mueller included evidence much obstruction against trump. And, b, miller conclue mueller trump was not exonerated on obstruction. So this week no chargeable conspiracy, open case on obstruction. Preet bharara cites that mueller clearly found substantial evidence of obstruction. With respect to the second part of the Mueller Report on obstruction, i think that is where there is some troublesome language in the letter. It is clear that bob mueller found substantial evidence of obstruction. Almost by definition there is substantial evidence if you think it is such a close question you cant make a decision about whether or not the president committed a crime. Bob mueller made it clear to say this does not exonerate the president. So that raises a lot of questions. Substantial evidence. Like trump pressing comey not to investigate mike flynn who later confessed to a crime. Like trump firing comey with a written false reason. Then trump confessing the real reason was russia. Like trump attacking comeys replacement mccabe in driving him out of the doj or trump attacking muellers entire probe or discouraging people from cooperating with Law Enforcement or calling them rats. Or praising criminal defendants who didnt testify honestly. Or talking up the pardon po