The cia is lying. There was a lot of cherry pick going on by this committee. Thoesz wse who put together Senate Report. Torture dependent just happen, after all. The cia tortured detainees for years. Torture is something we avoided. Water boarding thats ka lating into near drownings. We thought we were doing the nations will. Theyre responsible for the use of these techniques. Of course theyre going to defend them. The level of abuse was torture. Absolutely devastating to read. Helps our enemies recruitment efforts. What are we supposed to do in kiss them on both cheeks and tell us please, please, tell us what you know. My president would have ordered these interrogation methods. I have no sympathy for them. Torture doesnt work. More often than not, you get bad information. Talking points is siding with the cia people. It did, in fact, produce actionable intelligence. I have a book on world war ii killing patents so i know what im talking about. I would do it again in a minute. Washington is the place where you never, never have to read the report to attack the report. I havent read the report but i know for a fact you havent read it . 6,000 page. No, but how about 500 ive seen parts of it. Summaries of it. Heres what the man who says he hasnt read the Senate IntelligenceCommittee Report thinks of the 500page Senate Intelligence report. This report says its not successful. The report is full of crap. The defenders revealed by the Senate IntelligenceCommittee Report have one thing for common. For them, apparently, theres no such thing as torture. Do you think what took place is torture . Legally not. In order to pretend no torture took place, none of the defenders of torture are willing to mention what actually happened. Or defend it. They pure rd the food for on detainee and put it in his anus. Is that torture . I cant speak to that. That was not one of the authorized or approved techniques. Hes right. Thats not an authorized technique. But the cia actually did use that unauthorized technique. And dick cheney refused to answer that question. Instead, dick cheney got away from pretending on fox news that the choice facing the cia was to torture terrorists or kiss them on both cheeks. What are we supposed to do . Kiss them on both theek chooeks and say please, please, tell us what you know . Of course not. Not a single television defender of torture was willing to describe what the tortures actually did. Were not talking about anyone being burned or stabbed or cut or anything like that. Were talking about people made to stand in awkward positions. Have water put into their nose, into their mouth. But again, nobody suffered any lasting injury. Not unless you call death a lasting injury. Joining me now is Valerie Plame and michael hirsch, interviewed Michael Hayden for his latest police for politico magazine. Valerie, i noticed one thing about everyone who is trying to defend the program will not mention the specifics described in the report, especially all the rectal hydration. Not one of them makes a single rectal reference when theyre defending all of this. Hi lawrence, thank you for having me. Under any common understanding of what torture is, it shows new that report. But heres another way of looking at it. If any of those techniques were used on u. S. Military men and women overseas, the cry about torture against americans would be deafening. Clearly, what Vice President cheney is doing is defending his legacy, hoping if he puts it out there enough, it will be true. Talk about general hayden. He has defended the program. He is miffed, though, because he came in in 2006 after the program had been discontinued. We have to remember as a coun y country, these programs were not acceptable. Water boarding was discontinued. By implication, there was agreement it was tortured. He tows the line. Hes upset that a program he merely tried to explain to the Senate Intelligence committee that hes being saddled with blame for it. To give hayden chronological credit here, when he takes over the cia, that actually is the first time, that is when they begin to open up to the full Senate Committees about whats going on here. Right. Theres a question of whether videotapes of some of the water border sessions were destroyed. The Committee Looked into that, decided to broaden its investigation into the exact techniques and the extent to which some of these operations were rogue cia operations were authorized at higher levels. And i think that, you know, thats really the tenor of the 6,000page classified report. And weve only seen, of course, 500page summary of that. But the important thing is to have the senate absolve individuals for responsibility for these acts and official themselves, including hayden that say president bush was informed as early as 2002, he personally authorizing the water boarding and to have dick cheney saying well, except for rectal hydration, i knew everything that was going on. I was really struck the Senate Committee did not assign responsibility in to a more precise way. I think one of the keys to that is in something Michael Hayden said on this network this morning. Lets listen to that. We thought we were doing the nations will. And, in fact, having lived through the period and even looking back on it now, i think this was indeed about the nations will. You have a small group saying its not about us, its not us. Its them, they did it. Frankly, that really is hypocrite call. To that issue of we thought we were doing the nations will, is that your impression about the people working in the cia at that time . And what were now reading about retroactively in the Senate Report. As a former cia ops officer and now a private citizen, i cant believe that this was done in our name. When you read the details it really is repugnant. Hayden makes the point over and over that in this report, which is flawed, because they were not able to interview many of those who were involved in the program, because there was a department of justice investigation. Maybe they should have investigations, allow these people to put the programs into place to be interviewed, to be investigated, let them make their case. Michael hayden is saying he would like to see a full investigation that does include testimony, that does include things that were not included in the senate staff report. I think he says that knowing its not going to happen. The department of justice has closed this bacase basically. There were 101 cases that were looked into. He said two of them involving deaths should be investigated by the doj. The doj closed that investigation a coup of years ago and has said its not going to reopen it on the basis of this Majority Senate report. And next year, you have the fruns coming in and taking over the senate. So i think youre going to see anything really to be called a followup to this report. Valley plame, the big dispute is is it effective . Could we have made the intelligence advances we made without torture. The Senate Report absolutely indicates that it was not necessary, that they did have the information about bin ladens courier before there was any torture, that they were building this file. The cia in their response, in the republican response to the Senate Report says no, the full fabric of the intelligence has to be considered. And included in the full fabric are some elements, some threads that came out of torture. How do we sort this out . It is hard, because they have each side has honed their arguments and its loud and hot and history is at stake. On the cia said, i would say the effectiveness of torture has been vastly overstated. On the other part, i would say in deference to your previous job in the senate, maybe the staffers didnt get everything they needed to or understand the context, but that doesnt take away from the core question of, is this who we are . Is this how were going to proceed when it was a dire situation in the immediate aftermath of 9 11 . Cheerily this ko clearly this country was traumatiz traumatized. But at those lowest moments you need to rely on your values, upon the oath of the constitution and what that means. And we failed. For me, at this point, though, the question is, what now . This report has come out, now what happens . Were having in the media a debate, a conversation, but what now . How do we go forward . One thing, valley, before we go, i would say about the report is, it reads to me as a nonargumentative report. Theyre simply saying based on the 6. 3 million pages of documents weve been able to review, we do not find the evidence in these documents that proves the following thing. Or we do find the evidence in these documents that does prove this thing. Its not a so far in what ive read of this report, it isnt really arguing conclusions. Its simply saying this is what the documents show. This is what happened. Yeah. Exactly. It goes, though, to the very question of who we are and how were going to respond. When i hear the likes of dick cheney and others defending torture as though it is yet another Foreign Policy tool that we have, i dont recognize that. That is not my country. And i think most americans as theyre absorbing this and hearing this understand. Valley plame and michael hirsch, thank you both for joining me tonight. Thank you. Coming up, the psychologist, thats what he call himself, who helped the cia inventor chur te invent torture techniques. And Roger Goodell has new rules for the nfl. Many americans who have prescriptions fail to stay on them. Thats why we created programs which encourage people to take their medications regularly. So join us as we raise a glass to everyone who remembered today. Bottoms up, america. See you tomorrow. Same time. Another innovation from cvs health. Because health is everything. A chokehold is defined as any pressure to the throat or windpipe which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air. The full city council is km expected to vote on that ban in january. Up next, the psychologist who tricked the cia out of 80 million to teach them torture techniques that dont work. Thats next. Its not about how many miles you can get out of the cmax hybrid. Its about how much life you can fit into it. The ford cmax hybrid. With an epaestimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. And all the room you need to enjoy the trip. Go stretch out. Go further. You owned your car for four you named it brad. You loved brad. And then you totaled him. You two had been through everything together. Two boyfriends. Three jobs. Youre like nothing can replace brad then Liberty Mutual calls. And you break into your happy dance. If you sign up for better car replacement, well pay for a car thats a model year newer with 15,000 fewer miles than your old one. See Car Insurance in a whole new light. Liberty mutual insurance. There is good news op the Senate Intelligence report on torture and that is that no one in the government knew anything about torture before the cia got into the torture business. They didnt have a well trained cadre of torturers ready to go, and so as senator rockefeller described it yesterday, they made everything up on the fly. The 123459 report indicates that the torture program was ineff t ineffectual and involved much more torture than anyone previously imagined and that it was a cesspool of corruption. A former military psychologist was given 81 million, instantly making him the highest paid shrink in the history of world. And his job was to come up with torture techniques. Youre about to hear him discussing water boarding. You will have to listen very, very carefully for the wisdom, the humanity, and the decency. I couldnt hear any. Does water boarding constitute torture . Well, we know it didnt in 2001 through about 2006 or 07. I dont think its the right thing to do. I dont think its the wrong thing to do. I think you can do it in a way that it constitutes torture. I think you can do it in a way that constitutes training. I think you can do it in a way that it helps a person shift their priorities so that they experience less abuse later on. Its like every tool in the tool bag. You can underuse it, you can overuse it. Joining me now is a reporter for the huffington post, Ellie Watkins and zach meachum. So there we see the immediamad who up this program. No background in islamism or serious interrogation or what to do in order to get real actionable intelligence. Its a wonder that the program didnt even go more off the rails than it did. It was already one of the most brutal reading that report is reading one of the most brutal things i have ever read in my life. The techniques were horrific. They produced no actionable intelligence. And the idea that a rank amateur was in charge of producing them and was paid 80 million by our government is frankly astounding. And allie, the Senate Report says neither psychologist had any experience as an interrogator, nor did either have Specialized Knowledge of al qaeda, background in counterterrorism or any relevant cultutura culturalov or linguistic expertise. And heres 180 billion contract that they get. Which the Obama Administration cancels as soon as they get in there, but by that time, these guyshood already collected 81 million for their torture training. Yes, lawrence. I think the whole story line surrounding mitchell and jess and these two psychologists who devised this program is really fascinating and a really important part of this story that i think the Senate Report doesnt necessarily examine in as much detail as is probably merited. But as far as whether or not minkmit mitchell and jessen were qualified, this notion of them being completely inexperienced when it comes to the environment they were dealing with, when it came to islam, when it came to the middle east, thats certa certainly relevant. Lets hear from the man himself once again about getting actionable intelligence. Youre saying the design and purpose of the enhanced program wasnt necessarily to get actionable intelligence . It was to facilitate getting actionable intelligence by making a bad cop that was bad enough that the person would engage with the good cop. I would be stunned if they found any kind of evidence to suggest that eits, as they were being applied yielded actionable intelligence. Im not going to acknowledge if it was me or wasnt me, but if you read rodriguezs book hard measures he says that the contractor they sent, job was to look at the resistance strategies that the detainee was employing and make suggestions to the fbi and cia team. Zach meachem, its kind of wonderful that the highest paid shrink in the history of the world has no idea how crazy he sounds. Even on his own term, the argument makes no sense. I dont like this terminology, but you soften people up using torture and then afterwards theyre going to talk. But if you look at the record of bin laden interrogation, the cia claims 16 people who were in their detention gave actionable intelligence. They say three of them got them before they were tortured. In fact, seven more gave the intelligence before they were tortured. Of the remaining six, three of them gave testimony the cia said was false and misleading. Another two gave testimony that was only corroborative intelligence that the cia already had. And the last gave intelligence that the cia described as being speculative. This didnt produce intelligence. In fact, the person who gave the best system, a guy named hassan guhl gave most of that testimony before he was tortured. Afterwards, he clammed up. There was no evidence. The evidence is that they gave false and misleading at best. Lets listen to mr. Mitchell once more time just so you can hear the full professionalism of this expert. Listen to this. A very good friend of mine named don hutchins who was captured by kashimiri separatists under the same guy that kidnapped daniel pearl before he turned him over to ksem, they let the women go but eventually killed the men. And i started trying to figure out, what is this about, you know . Who are these people . So even though personally, i dont give a damn whether you worship, what god you worship, which way you face when you worship, what kind of building you worship in. I dont care. But literally, when you want to kill my friends and kill my family and you want to destroy my way of life, youve got my full attention 37. Of course he doesnt care where they worship because he doesnt know anything about where they worship or anything else about these people that he was trying to get into the heads of. Allie, go ahead. I think as im kind of considering the whole fact that mitchell did this interview in the first police place, which is a big deal because he hasnt spoken publicly about his role in the program yet. I think theres some important things coming out of this story that, as i said, i think this is a big hole in the Senate Report that they dont really examine how this mitchelljessenseer psychologist thing happened. If you compare this to the Committee Report this in and of itself did a better job than the Senate Intelligence report of kind of looking at the back channels that happened before this program, this seed really started in washington, its very important to see how mitchell and jessen, who in washington told them they were kwaul qualified to run this program. I dont think that question is really examined in the senate Committee Report. The more he talks, the less qualified he sounds. Thank you very much for joining me tonight. Thank you. Thank for having me. Coming up, new rules for nfl players in Domestic Abuse cases. They challenge us. They take us to worlds full of heroes and titans. For respawn, building the best Interactive Entertainment begins with the cloud. This is titanfall, the first multiplayer game built and run on microsoft azure. Empowering gamers around the world to interact in ways they never thought possible. This cloud