,. Good to go, all right. Hello, new york. Thank you for joining us, live at in new york city for this very, very Special Edition of why is this happening . He is insightful, he is big hearted, very, very very smart. Admit it, hes taller than you expected. Please give a warm welcome to my friend, my beloved colleague, and msnbcs chris hayes. [applause] hello, everybody. Hello thank you. Oh, stop. [applause] stop it [applause] how are you . Good . Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Sit down, sit down, sit down. Thank you, thats extremely kind. I hate attention and positive feedback. Really, really hard 20 seconds for me. Thank you for cutting it short. Its amazing to be here in my hometown of new york city, ive got some family here. Tonight, were gonna talk about democracy. In that word, weve probably talked more about democracy in the last four or five years that i had in all of my time before than i would say. Even that as a topic seems weird, we know americas democracy. Theres certain kind of history that youre taught that i think is part of american civic culture. Deeply. Almost kind of Civic Religion. Which roughly goes to the following. The founders rebelled against the tyranny of the crown. And the injustice of monarchy. And they conceived in liberty a new nation, founded on the government buy of and for the people. Thats the Lincoln Gettysburg Address version of it. And theyve rejected basically the idea that there is some authority above all of us that has dominion over us. That each of us are imbued with the ability to determine our own faith, collectively as a we. Thats a very difficult, messy process. Fundamentally, in the eyes of some of the founders, god given. In the others, its a natural truth. But thats the idea. We all decide together what we all are going to do. And that simple, fundamental, and at the time radical idea is what separates us here in the Western Hemisphere from the old world of europe, where you had monarchies and Kings And Queens and tyrants. And then as time went on, various forms of blood and soil authoritarianism, ultimately fascism, culminating in the second world war. And you dont really get democracies in that part of the world in the way we think about them until afterwards. There are some, obviously, like theres democratic forms of government that exist before. Than a bunch of failed revolutions. These compromises that work in the uk and in poland and in different parts of the continent. Basically, we are the model for the world. Right . Yes, where the first ones. We figured it out. We slot off the yoke of tyranny. And we seize our faith. The other part of the question that we all know, a very complicated story. As one british critic at the time said, the loudest cries of liberty come from the americans as they whip their slaves. Which is, by the way, an important point that they saw at the time. Right . People understood at the time, there was incredible, ridiculous tension in american rhetoric about Self Determination and democracy. But the general story, i think we have, we start with an imperfect democracy and then we work towards a more more perfect democracy. The more Perfect Union that in the preamble. And i think theres something to that story. I dont think its a crazy story. But its basically the Civic Religion we have. I think theres another way of thinking about the story of american democracy. Which is that america is kind of the ongoing dynamic site of a Perpetual Contestation over democracy. That its the sight of a constant pitched battle between forces on the side of democracy versus against them. And the forces against them are not fringe characters, and sometimes, the forces against them or the most celebrated people in the country. Andrew jackson, who is viewed as a small d democrat, because he sort of railed against the elites, right . And he founded the modern Democratic Party with his sort of populism, he invited the people into the white house on the day of integration where they all got drunk. He was not, in any recognizable sense, really a democrat in the way we think of it today. I mean, he thought there was a cast of people who should rule over another cast of people. He was one of the major pursuers of the Ethnic Cleansing that made the continent what it is. Right . He didnt think that everyone had some universal, inalienable rights. That all of us collectively should rule all of us collectively. He thought that the white man should rule over slaves and over the Indigenous People that populated the planet. Im not saying this in Andrew Jacksons canceled way. He should be. To be clear. Im actually talking in a very specific way about how would you characterize the ideological Belief System of Andrew Jackson. Is it accurate to call Andrew Jackson a small the democrat . Is it accurate to college into jackson, like, a believer in democracy . Right . I think its a little tough to say it is. At least in our modern sense. Which is the best sense. Theodore roosevelt, on mount rushmore. What does theater roosevelt believed . He, writes in, says often, that the white race is there to rule over the other races. He found what becomes essentially the american empire. In the pacific, where we will rule over these people. Theyre not gonna get the vote. Theyre not gonna be citizens. Theyre not full equal. They are subject to authority, from on high, and they are forced to be under that authority, not that different way than the remote king back at the time. Again, with all the examples im giving, theres people at the time who recognize this. One of the most pitched debate that happened in American History on the floor of the congress is about the Trail Of Tears. Where people come to the well to say, this is, they dont have the term of the time, Ethnic Cleansing. This is totally unjust. We cant do this. These people have inalienable rights. At the same time, when we started fighting our wars under the Theodore Roosevelt and pursuing american empire, there were people at the time, mark twain being very prominent among them, saying were doing the thing that we hated the crown for doing. And each moment in American History, where you have these fights in frictions over what the meaning of democracy actually is, there are contemporaries on each side of the debate. Its not this neat arc where we start confused and benighted, and dont really understand that slavery is wrong, but then we sort of walk into the late. No, they knew. They knew. They knew the Trail Of Tears was wrong. They knew that the wars in the pacific and the philippines, what we were doing, they knew it was wrong. There were people who really clearly saw what it was. And thats true at every point. And its true up until the period in the run up to will vote to. That story, we learned, is basically the fall. Because of the trauma of world war i, the u. S. Is very reticent to get involved in another war on european shores. Fair. And we kind of dither. Fdr comes up with land lease, this is the basic version, because hes trying to straddle, he really somethings gonna have to be done. But its very hard to get americans into this idea of a second war in europe. In just several decades later. And then pearl harbor happens, and run. And we defeat fascism. Right . [laughter] go us. [laughter] thats basically the story. And that story also masks exactly the same thing. That is masked in those other moments, from countries founding, to the Trail Of Tears with jackson, to the creation of u. S. Empire in the pacific under Theodore Roosevelt. Which is contemporaneous debates in the society of what democracy is and whether its good. Whether what we actually do want is for all of us collectively, as individuals with sovereign rights over ourselves. Collectively, to come together to transfer that sovereignty into a collective we. That the sides as a democracy how we will mark our faith. How we will go forward. Or whether we want is something else. Dominion. Ruled by some group or person. That is an eternal debate in american politics. Were now realizing this, i think, in a way that we didnt appreciate until we found ourselves in this moment now, where were debating it again every day. And it feels weird, it feels alien, and it feels like it landed from mars. How did we all come to a consensus on this. Didnt we all agree that where a democracy . Wasnt it the fact that in the old days, we would fight along the 40 yard lines . This was a cliche. Right . We didnt have extremes. We were actually debating. No, the debate has been there the entire time. And one of the most useful interventions in understanding the debate being there the whole time, it comes by way of this up and coming talent that ive spotted. [laughter] ive got a pretty good eye. In this really remarkable Podcast Cold Ultra that it came a year ago. [applause] totally, if you have not listen to it, go download it. Subscribe to my podcast to what youre doing it. Download ultra. It is the story of an basically, fascist sympathizers in the u. S. Prior to the war. In their efforts. An incredible lengthy went to, and im not gonna spoil, were gonna talk about in a second. Now that subsequently has been turned part of it. I want to urge people, because i read the book this week, i have been under the gun of deadline wise. I want to urge people listen to ultra to read the book. Because this book, precool. See it . [applause] it is not just the podcast in the book. It goes so much further. Its an incredible read. And its kind, of i think, a skeleton key for this particular moment. So, without further ado, id like to introduce the author of precool. My dear, dear, dear friend. My beloved colleague, rachel maddow. [applause] [applause] [applause] a lot of people in this room. A lot of. People for those listening on the podcast, 20,000 people in this room. Never seen anything like it in my life. Im wearing my reading glasses, youre all just little blobs. Cant see you at all, which is helpful. Yes. Can we, i want to start in your way into this material. I have to say, it is an incredible talent that you have. And this has been through a new Television Show for years, of finding these sort of unexplored nuggets in American History. The stories that people dont know and then you tell them, and youre, like what . Really . That actually happened . And ultra was an incredible example of that. Where i literally, i mean, i knew who Father Coughlin was. A rightwing antisemitic populist preacher. I knew that. I knew that there was, you know, this American First Movement that lindbergh, read the philippe novel, which is great. Its great. That was kind of my cannon for those things. I know those things. Nothing else that appeared that puck asked. I want you to start by just saying, what was your way into this material . It really is not on the surface. So, i never set out to tell a history story. Im always looking for something thats going on in current life. Its always something that sprung from things that are going on in the news. And the thing i get dinged for rightly, i think, in terms of the way ive done my work. That if i want to tell you about something happening in the world today, everything has to start with first, a meteor hit the earth. And then the dinosaurs died. And when their bodies dissolved. [laughter] thats, good thats a good bit. If that is not your way of thinking about the world, i can understand why that is alienating. Im not everybodys cup of tea. That, thank you. I love you too. [applause] thats the way my brain works. I was as a nerve does anybody. But also by kind of confused and interested that we were seeing all this altright, neonazi, antisemitic, and holocaust and ill stuff around the rise of trumpism. So, trumpism is happening in the Electoral College space. And for a minute, we call it the altright. I dont think we call them that anymore. But it was, seeing them rise alongside trump and seeing them chilling for trump, and seeing them as parallel movements. I didnt understand why that was. So, i wanted to figure out how will, not just antisemitism, but specifically hala talk holocaust or no has function in the united states. Before. That was the starting point . That was the starting point. How do, because if you go back far enough in terms of the origins of american holocaust denial, which i did, you get back to like 1948. Hostomel is a lot of terrible things. One of the things it is is weird. Just with so much evidence that it happened, how can it be that we say it didnt happen . Well, thats especially true in 1948. When there are lots of people in the world who are witnesses to what happened. So, how can it be that it is a source of denial for political movement. It is not that they honestly believe it didnt happen. They are using holocaust now for a reason, as part of a political project. That is what i got into in the 40s, and that is how i found my defendants. That is how i learned that they all got put on trial and they all got off when the judge died. And i thought, you know what . I was gonna tell a different story, i think immunity all this one. I dont know any of it. You trace in the book different strands of pro fascist, antisemitic, not see aligned thought and actors in the u. S. How would you describe, in some ways, its a little bit of a misfit toys situation. Theres some real odd ones in their. Yeah situat theyre also Operatina Discursive Environment that is not closed off to what theyre saying. Correct. Tell me about Public Opinion around the question of fascism in the rise of it in 1930, 31, 32 . When some of the people that you document in the book are trying to, and sometimes at the behest of the german government, cultivate sympathy. Fascism was the movement of the future. Fascism did not have the cast that we associate it now retrospectively with notti germany. The number one selling book in america in 1941 was written by Charles Lindberghs wife, and morrow lindberg. About how fascism is coming to america, when that be fantastic . We could finally get some stuff done. And it was, in fact, a lot of people who have looked into it, i cant say this definitively, a lot of people believe it was Ghost Written By A Guy NamedLawrence Dennis, the leading intellectual fascist of his time. He wrote a book called the coming american fascism. He went on one of the things that we found was told Nbc Radio Archives from town meeting of the year, which was a great debate show that they used to host along the nbc radio networks. And one of the very first ones that they did, they brought Lawrence Dennis on to argue for fascism against other people who are arguing against fascism. He went the floor with him. Fascism cross fire. Fascism cross fire. Totally, exactly. [laughter] i mean, it was a popular thing. By the time we get to 1940, 80 of the American Public is against us joining world war ii. 83 . Thats what fdr was up against. Some of that was just, we dont want to fight another war. Some of that was the people who want to fight against, we actually think have the better idea. How did they go about cultivating, we talk about dennis for a little bit, whos a worthwhile just to spend a little time on. Im such a good twist when it comes to him. Anyway. Talk about him a little bit. Lawrence denys had been a state department official, he had been, gone to harvard. A very aerial date, particular guy. He had kind of a Substack Contrary next to him. You couldnt complement him without him insulting you for complimenting him. Theyre kind of guy. He also, in his gruffness in is contrary, nice made everybody fall in love with him. That he was seen, men, women, old, young, didnt matter. Everybody had a crush on lawrence tennis. He slipped his way through the 1930s. In a way that he didnt understand where his wife minded. A lot of interesting stuff about him. He was Writing Speeches and books for the isolationists. And the isolationists werent calling themselves fascists overtly. But they had a leading intellectual selfdescribed Fascist In America writing their stuff. And dennis was a favorite of the not see government in berlin. They brought him over from nuremberg rallies. They brought him over to germany and gave him access to everybody up to an including hitler. And he used it to essentially become a very well networked, very influential person. He interviewed mussolini, it viewed hillary. Spent time with all the most important diplomats in four leaders of the time. And then he came home and he wrote speeches for isolationist senators and books for isolationist wives and heroes. And he was one of the Sedition Trial Defendants and he was so arrogant he not only defended himself in court. But he insisted that there should be mental examinations of his codefendants. Was there was the theres actually a way out of. They agree, theyll want metal examinations. He is, hes the leading, i mean, he said theres a leading fascist American Intellectual the document. Also the seed is being planted intimate fertile soil for a bunch of. Reasons i want if you could talk a little bit about why thats the case. There is the fact that world war i was brutal. And awful. And theres an interesting thing that happens in both this book and ultra, which is that people who totally understandably and reasonably were like, that was a disaster. Being kind of prepared to be like, w