Interrogations in an effort to ensure that confessions are voluntary and not coerced. Joining us today is jeffrey deskovic. His coerced confession to a murder cost him 16 years behind bars. That is until dna evidence cleared him. Also here is dr. Matthew johnson, or professor matthew johnson, i should say. He is a psychology professor from John Jay College who has done research on false confessions and wrongful convictions. Thank you both for being with us this afternoon. Thanks for having us. Im gonna start with you, jeffery. 16 years behind bars for something you didnt do. How did all that play out . What role did your confession play in your conviction . That was that was the only piece of evidence that they had. Basically i was interrogated for seven hours, driven out of county, threatened, and given false promises. It was not recorded. Details out of their testimony, and i was wrongfully convicted despite a negative dna test. How old were you . I was 16 when i was arrested, 17 when i was convicted. I wasnt free again till 32. Ugh. And this was a rape conv this was a rape and murder. Yes. Did you confess . Did you Say Something that would seem to indicate you had actually done this crime . I gave a coerced, false confession, because i was interrogated for seven hours, and i was threatened, and they gave me false promises. I was totally overwhelmed psychologically and emotionally. And what was the breakthrough that lead to revising your case and ultimately getting you out of prison . Further dna testing through the dna data bank not only reaffirmed my innocence, but also identified the actual perpetrator, whose dna was only in that database because left free while i was doing time for his crime, he committed an unrelated murder 3 1 2 years later, killing a schoolteacher and mother of two. Now and you came out youve gone to school, youve gotten your phd and then a masters degree. Masters degree, im sorry. I just elevated promoted you, didnt i . Maybe in the future i will get one. And you have really made this your lifes work, to make sure that it doesnt happen to anyone yes. I took some of the compensation that i got, and i started the organization the Jeffery Deskovic foundation for justice, which we work to prevent this through raising awareness and seeking policy changes. But we also work to free people that it has happened to. Now i want to bring you into this conversation, dr. Johnson, cause youve pointed out youve written quite a bit on this, sort of, what you call a curious gap. Yes. In legislation. Talk to me about that. Yes. Yes. The fact that we want to make sure that people are not coerced. But then the thing that would allow us to see exactly whats said in that room its not in place, at least in new york state. Yes. Yes, sandra. You know, i refer to it as a peculiar gap. New york state actually has prohibits certain types of interrogation tactics. But the difficulty with that being effective effective rule or law is that the police are not required to preserve the record of the interrogation. So, as jeffery indicated in his case, he was taken into custody by police, questioned for many, many hours, and they did not record what they said to him, and how it was conducted. So at the end, when he as he said, hes 16 years old, hes terrified, hes traumatized, he hasnt had a lawyer, hes been away from his family. Mmhmm. And they use this goodcop badcop routine to coerce a confession from him theres no record of the tactics that they used, and he gave in. Also, his case involved a false polygraph, which is a feature in many false confession cases. Mmhmm. False polygraph feedback. So, he was convicted, and he served his 16 years. And, you know, gratefully, hes out, and hes made a tremendous. Tremendous accomplishments. But he lost 16 years of his life. He lost 16 years. Unusual. Theres a series of cases in new york state where this has been a problem. And i think one of the most central park five. Certainly. The central park five. Yes. And perhaps it could have made a big difference had those kids confession been on had we known exactly what happened to those juveniles when they were taken into custody and what the interrogation techniques that were used against them. And its interesting that, you know, there are definite rules about, you know, what you can use, what you can ask people how you interrogate them. Yes. But theres nothing that proves how you that you actually followed the rules, because theres no theres no record of it. They dont preserve the record. All other legal documents or legal evidence tends to be preserved so they can be reviewed, but the interrogation is not preserved. Can i just add this is like a twoway street, also. Not only would this prevent wrongful convictions, but its it would protect honest cops from false allegations of coercion. And also makes for better evidence, as well. So its really a winwin scenario. So, it would be good for everybody in the situation. It would be good for everybody in the situation. Why do you think there has been such a reluctance on the part of lawmakers to you know, to make this the law of the land . Or at least the law in this state. Well, there are a variety of things. I think the chief is that there are many forces in Law Enforcement that want to continue to keep interrogations secret, and they dont want there to be a record of exactly how they conduct interrogations. And, somehow or other, i think that they have been able to be influential in terms of obstructing this becoming law. Mmhmm. Now some states there are only 17 states that do require that Police Record interrogations. So its not like all states do it. And among the 17 states, there are variations in terms of how laws are worded. In some of the states that have judicial ruling with the High Court Ruling in the particular state. For example, in new jersey, new Jerseys Supreme Court has required it. So, perhaps, that may be an option, a way to go here. I know you wanted to no. Go ahead. You wanted to add something, jeffrey. Yeah. Just what i wanted to add is that i also i agree with dr. Johnson. But i want to add that somehow recording interrogations, which is really about the accuracy of the process, has come to be seen as tantamount to being soft on crime, which ties to the political planks that a lot of the politicians run on. You know, weve gotten the legislation passed in the assembly. We have not gotten it passed in the senate. The senate happens to be republican at this time, and they often run on this run on those type of planks. And how often is this an issue, or is it an issue more often with suspects, if you will, of color . Oh, most of the it most often is affecting minorities. Although, wrongful convictions and most often it happens to minorities. Yes, and further, theres reason to believe that from Research Studies as well from reports from archival record that Police Interrogate suspects from minority communities differently. Mmhmm. That is that theyll take greater latitude, and they may be more so, you have that fact operating. Thats another reason why its important for there to be a record of exactly what happens. Yeah. But among the confirmed false confessions, you have predominance of suspects. But this is something that people from a variety of different ethnic backgrounds have suffered from. Obviously. Sure. Now, on march 3rd, both of you are going to be involved in a Panel Discussion about this issue. Tell me a little bit about that. Youre gonna be moderator, and youre gonna be on the panel. This is actually an outgrowth of a commentary that i recently wrote back in december that was the peculiar gap in new york state interrogation law. And, essentially, i sort of talked about the problem with the fact that there was no law requiring the police to preserve the record of the interrogation. I cited jeffreys case, i cited central park five case, i cited martin tankleffs case a variety of other cases, cause its a series of people, recently the Pedro Hernandez case a number of cases. And trying to bring in the academics, people from Law Enforcement, people from our criminal defense to look at this issue and see what we can do to try move this reform for it. And force people to listen. Yeah, well, thats the other thing, too, is, i mean, the value in having myself participate not just as an advocate, but also as the first person who was impacted by it, as well as johnny hincapie, who was released not too long ago, who was in for 25 years on a falseconfession case. When you have people there that academicize it, and we more put it in flesh and blood in person. And i think that theres a value to that. Yeah, and people relate to it because they see themselves. Yes. Now that Panel Discussion is march 3rd at on thursday, this thursday, march 3rd, John Jay College of criminal justice 59th street and 10th avenue, 3 30 to 6 00 p. M. And the public is invited. Yes. And thats the important part. Mmhmm. Please come out and listen to this, because it is a very important issue. Thank you both for joining us this afternoon. Sandra, thank you for having us. Thank you, as well. Still ahead, the National Burial database of stay with us. There are untold numbers of unmarked slave burial sites across the country. That not only deprives generations of a piece of their own Family History, but also creates kind of a gap in American History. Enslaved americans is working to change that by establishing a process of official documentation for slave burials and Burial Grounds. And leading this project is the founding director of the Periwinkle Initiative at fordham university, sandra arnold. Also joining us is database Advisory Board member annette gordonreed. She is a Pulitzer Prize winner and a professor of american legal history at harvard university. Welcome to both of you. Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here. Sandra, this idea for the database grew out of, really, your own Family History, in a way. Fill us in on that. Well, it started out me spending time with my great aunt, else may frye. Shes the sister of my grandmother. Their father was born a slave. His name was ben harmon. And i always knew that my family had been enslaved in the region that we live in now, in tennessee, but i really didnt know a lot about our Family History. And before she died a couple lot of time with her. And so she told me where he was buried and took me to his gravesite. Cemetery. Mmhmm. And he died in 1946. He has a contemporary headstone. But next to him was a section of unmarked slave graves. So, of course, i became really inquisitive about who these people were. My own family . You know, who are they . And so from that, i started researching not only that particular plantation, but others in the area, and i realized that this was a problem not only in the state of tennessee, but it was a national issue. So, what have look, thats a huge project to get started. Its really ambitious. How look, how have you put it together, and how are you hoping to be able to collect, you know, data so that you can get a kind of comprehensive look at slave burial sites around the country . Well, i think the first thing is i think most people, obviously, think that were gonna go around the country, visiting each state, documenting sites. But, really, what were trying to do is create an official documentation process. And so the work relies on the public, the public participating. So the public actually tells us where the sites are. So, we have a site, a website. People can go to the site if they know of a burial or a Burial Ground in their community, they give us the information. And then were starting to process that information right now. How many how much have you gotten . You know, how many referrals have you gotten from people so far . Well, since i launched the project two or three years ago now, mind you, we had we havent yet weve never launched an official Public Outreach campaign, and we were able to get some really great press, which helped us. But weve received hundreds of Burial Grounds that means cemeteries, graveyards. But the individual graves are in the thousands. So were still actually processing that. And im gonna bring you into the conversation, professor. Youre on the Advisory Board. Yes. Why is this something that you could really sign on to . And i know history is your thing. Well, its the history of it, but its also important because enslaved people did not, in the main, get a chance to write letters, keep records of their families, and so forth. So anything we can do finding burial sites, archeology, anything about material culture, all those kinds of things are necessary to try to give them if not an actual voice, but to make them known to people as possible. And certainly burial rituals, grounds, those kinds of things can give Important Information about peoples cultures. So, its critical, i think. You know what . Look, and its also deeply personal, as we hear from sandras story. But it also seems to me as you know, we talk a lot about how American History is taught and the fact that there are these gaps everywhere. And especially when it comes to people of color, theres certain things that we all know were all going to be taught. And then nothing else. And then its sort of up to you, up until now, to go out and, you know, piece together get that information for yourself. Doesnt this, in a way, fill in some of those important gaps . I mean, yes, it tells us about our own individual families, but it also says something about the history of the country and the history of these people in the country. Oh, absolutely. And its wonderful to be able to have the public involved in all of this. Its not individual people working on their own. They can know that theyre part of a project that is taking place all over the country to talk about people, you know, ancestors whose lives, as i said ways. And so it is filling in the gaps is very, very important. Yes. Now i know that youre a Pulitzer Prize winner for a book that you wrote about the hemingses. Thomas jefferson and is this the kind of information that would help you as a you know, tell the story of that family. Whether it was the hemings or jefferson. This kind of stuff knowing where people were buried, how they were buried it tells you something about their absolutely. They just recently found the slave Burial Ground at monticello after all of these years. And we dont know where the hemingses are buried. Theres still more work to be done on that. But it would be very, very helpful to know, you know, what children were buried where, when, the dates, and so forth. I think it would be enormously important. And thats something we dont have right now. Okay. When you ive looked at your list of Advisory Board members. Its quite impressive. Has it surprised you how much youve struck a nerve when you started talking about, you know, really, peoples history their families as i said before, the countrys history, that so many people said, yeah. Yeah. I think that when i launched the work, i think one of the first surprises i got was the response from the public. The fact that people were so eager to help. Weve received submissions from almost every region of the country. Mmhmm. And, so, yeah. Now how are i have to ask you, how does it work . How are the Advisory Board members able to help you with this project, considering, you know, how big of a task it is . What is it that they are able to bring to the table . I mean, weve talked about your expertise as a historian. Mmhmm. Well, their expertise i mean, shes a historian, but i also have advisories im sorry advisors who are a part digital humanities, anthropology. And so i think in addition to their expertise, they guide me as i try to make decisions about about how to shape the database, different policies that were so, they bring a lot to the project. Let me ask you, what do you envision for the project down the road . I mean, look, this can be some tedious work in order to do it the way you want to, get the numbers, and sort of get it to where it almost operates on its own. Its gonna take some work. But what is your hope for it . Whats the. Well, obviously, my hope is that in perpetuity that there will be a space, a public space, as these sites are found, theres a space or a place to go to document them, number one. Number two i really hope, as it did for myself and my own family, that it will just kind of piece together narratives of, you know, people that are lost in genealogies. I know for a fact that lots of people are still searching for people lost because of the institution of slavery. So, i think finding people but i think those are probably some of the key things. And also, i think there are state that prevent some of the sites from being protected. So, i think, seeing that. Yeah. It seems to be a big issue. I mean, obviously, we ran into that i think, probably, the most famous african Burial Ground. Oh, yes. Is right here in the middle of new york city. And what has happened there is, obviously, not happening in other parts of the country. Yes. I guess a lot of times people dont even know what theyre digging up. Right. Right. Right. I think what happened with the site downtown should be a model for what could happen throughout the country, i think. You know, this also sparks another question in my mind. Im gonna defer to the professor, here. Does it surprise you in a lot a ways that we are still having these conversations about slavery, that we you know, were still talking about having it really recognized as an important part of American History, you know, in all of its facets, not just a chapter, that we pretend that we look at these families and lives and contributions that were still, you know, having to push to sort of get that done. Well, its not a topic that is pleasant for many people, and a lot of people want to move on from that and