The American Heart Association says you can save lives by passing it along to 5 women yellow. Still I'm starting with 3 I tolerate that. So until. I find out more I don't care when and dot org. He wants to release as much as he can I'm Pam who sell Fox News that from Attorney General William Barr who has scoured special counsel Robert Muller's Russia report and could release a condensed summary to Congress later today one of President Trump's attorneys tells Fox News it could come out around noon a lot of things in question 1st of all will the summary of principle conclusions require the attorney general to consult with the White House counsel's office are there any materials that could be subject to executive privilege the president's outside counsel has told me that they are not asking for nor do they expect to see the summary before it is transmitted to the heads of the congressional committees Fox says John Roberts Democrats don't want to summary they want the full unredacted report and yesterday key party leaders held a conference call the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi told all these members who are dialed in that she is going to reject any offer of a classified briefing about the report she is insisting that any d.o.j. Presentation about the report has to be unclassified from the start so that members can talk about it publicly Fox's Peter Doocy on Capitol Hill backlash against a freshman congresswoman under fire for making comments described by some as anti-Semitic yesterday in California hundreds of protesters gathered outside a hotel where Minnesota Democrat Omar was speaking at a fundraiser for the Council of American Islamic Relations While there she took a shot at President Trump we finally have a leader a world leader in the White House who publicly says Islam hates us. Fuels hate against Muslims representative Omar one of the 1st Muslim women and Congress ended up apologizing for her comments about Israel after receiving bipartisan criticism this is Fox News. Fox Nation is the place for exclusive content you can't get anywhere else new honest opinion. Prayers songs and speeches at a mosque in New Zealand the house of worship in Christ Church reopening following a shooting rampage there and at one other mosque that left 50 people dead Muslims account for just over one percent of New Zealand's 4800000 citizens and yet the capital's mayor said it was an attack on all that horrendous incident occurred on March the 15th when a 28 year old Australian man use semiautomatic weapons to open fire on worshippers in the isle nor in Lynnwood Moss The suspect then appeared in court flashing a hand side used by white supremacists was charged with murder that's Fox's Ryan Chilcote it's been a long night for hundreds of passengers aboard a cruise ship off Norway's western coast there in the process of being a vacuum waited one by one by helicopter after the ship's engines stopped working and rough waters 3 of the engines are said to be working now the ship will be towed to port the Sweet 16 and. Shaping up at the n.c.a.a. Men's college basketball tournament Saturday was all about the top seeds the lone upset of the day if you can call it that was 5 seed all burn beating 4 seed Kansas 8975 in the Midwest region elsewhere Kentucky outlasted Wofford 6256 in the East region as you drop Maryland 6967 a while from true waters and 2 seed Michigan State is back in the sweet 16 for the 1st time since 2015 after a $70.00 to $50.00 win over Minnesota Fox's Ryan Mayer also advancing Michigan Florida State Gonzaga and Purdue big dreams about big bucks have come true yet lottery officials say the Powerball jackpot has ballooned to 750000000 dollars after no ticket matched all 6 numbers in last night's drawing the next chance to win is Wednesday nobody has won Powerball since the day after Christmas camp who sail Fox News. Americans are always on the move there in the car or at the office or working around the house Americans refuse. 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Campbell and stress free to stop dreaming invented them today even create a dot com that Stevens Creek the w dot com. M m m m m m m m m m m m. M m m m m m m m m m. M. M. M m m m m m. M. Greetings sister Mrs Middle America and all the ships at sea this is Ian Punnett on coast to coast am thank you again for all the kind words regarding last night's show in for George Norry last night George I heard. Ripped it up in Everett Washington that haunted t. And. You'll hear more about it I'm sure when he comes back next weekend probably more about the baller report to which we didn't talk about last night much but I know George will get to it coming up on Monday night and certainly as we find out more about what's in the Mulder report. So Monday no Monday night looks like it's shaping up to be a big one here on coast to coast am. But I'm. I'm so excited about tonight's guest that I'm I'm playing hurt don't know what happen. Common in a college town common you know being a professor and working around a lot of young people I got something that gave me a low grade fever that I'm still struggling with tonight I tell you that only because although I think I I got back 90 percent of my strength from about 12 hours ago which I just was completely you know I was face down in a pool of drew on my bed and I was like. I I was I was certain that I could not miss tonight because I know our guest Dr carer Robertson had worked her schedule so that she could be here tonight and I love her book so much about the trial of Lizzie Borden that I just knew you know. As a great talk show host should think about it I was I was not going to let anything get between me in the ring tonight write a paper cut a low grade fever no no I had to be here and and so I But I'm telling you about this sort of Malays a little bit as I'm fighting through it with some coffee and tea and and honey because. It's a strong possibility I can get a little woozy somewhere during the show and you know I could end up calling Lizzie Borden Molly Hatchet some such so bear with me tonight because you're going to love this show you will find this fascinating Kara Roberts and began research on the Lizzie Borden case when she was an undergraduate in 1990 at Harvard she got a Ph d. In English from Oxford and it j.d. Right jurors doctor from Stanford Law School so she brings a unique legal literary eye to the trial of Lizzie Borden and we'll talk about that coming up next on coast to coast am this is Ian Punnett. 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Well Care Robertson I'm not sure where we're catching you tonight but I understand you're in a hotel room somewhere in between personal appearances and book signings that's right and I'm in New York City and it's a lot later than I'm usually up yeah you're in the post sister put you know they're here and they're waiting for us and this is the beauty of this audience is this is a subject which we have turned to from time to time on coast along with for example a couple other books that or authors that you even referenced we just had on Bill James. About 6 months ago talking about his book about the earliest known serial killer in the United States are very likely. As the earliest known serial killer and so I was glad to see you reference him later on because he too had studied Lizzie Borden and he was a great guest that night we could probably do 3 hours just talking about your work for the International Criminal Tribunals. At the Hague. Sure well no I mean to say you had a great career and it's interesting I mean sort of like Bill James in all the work that he's done with sabermetrics and other things that you've got this whole other thing going on so other than other than being an author what else are you doing these days. Well right now I'm I'm just working on Lizzie Borden related projects for the book. But I have to turn my attention to another case that has an unsolved mystery at its core to love the so would you to be with you you know I know you hear so so tell me do you think and then this is because I did my dissertation on true crime so I have intersected the story in a couple of different ways in. Research do you think of what you did here as a true crime book. I guess I really didn't as I was writing it. You know it it. You probably know there's on read better even better than I do much better than I do so you could probably tell me but my goal was just to stay as close to the archival sources as possible that could write a primary source as possible and just lay out the story from the beginning today and. And let the reader judge for him or herself. That is the essence of true crime a good true crime like every genre there's good and bad examples of it but the reason I say that to you is that in the promotional material they don't talk about your book as true crime but I did write and invented the 1st ever literary theory of true crime as sort of an objective way to determine what is and what isn't considered true crime. And you score a home run with this this is a great true crime book for all of the right reasons and that's what I just I just loved it right away when I started to read it because you stuck so closely to the text and because of the 10000000 footnotes in the back of the book that the reader can really be assured that what you're everything you talk about with regard to this crime is true as you pursue truth in discussing the crime. Yeah I thought it was important for the reader to be able to be confident about that if they're so much in these particular of these stories that are so famous and have acquired a mythic status there's a lot of gossip that gets attached to them and certainly fun to speculate but if you're really just trying to lay out the story. That it's important not to include that and so as a result there are things that you know I wish I could have put in. Things that things that even terrific writers like Edmund Pearson might have included write it was an early classic true crime writer. But you know that I have access to more archival sources than he did and so there's certain things that I you know I just I just had to stick with the. You mentioned admin Pearson and what care Robinson is referring to is an essayist who is a librarian who is. Known for writing about crimes he actually predates what we would call true crime he wasn't considered a true crime writer in his day but we look back on him now and realize that he was one of the early models of what would later be called True Crime true crime didn't recommend his work highly enough oh I know and it's in the public domain right I mean anybody can look it up online and you can read Edmund Pearson and his work on was he born because it is it is formative. Yes he was. He had a large role in launching the legend right. But the but the legend was secure and this is part of what I like so much about what you did and then we'll get into the story and and. And your own innovations with the story is that. What we have in the in the case of Lizzie Borden is one of those. Trials one of Eve that even in its day was being discussed as being a trial of the century and was well followed by the you know international press. And in the case of Lizzie Borden she hit him in the story hit at a time when journalism was still kind of figuring out what it was it was there was a kind of my ptosis that was going on and it was breaking away from just being newspaperman you know somebody's out for a good story you know and the way we think about it in in. Terms of like early movies from the twenty's and thirty's the cigar chomping you know men and women who were chasing after a story and then they weren't necessarily formally educated and then but this is where journalism really was trying to establish itself as being kind of a social science and they were trying to elevate the art of journalism and it has it's happening right around the time of the Lizzie Borden trial and I really enjoyed the fact that as you described the people who were describing the trial you hit on all those characters both the people that were you know the the people who grew up with ink on their fingers because they were copy boys who moved their way up and then also the elevated sort of east coast literary columnist types. Yes I think that I think there's a for that reason there's that kind of ranking maternity Yes. And. I was. I was really interested in the journalists as a group and I picked out 3 in particular to follow one of them was a woman named Elizabeth Jordan who went on to have a career as an editor and mingled with all the literary figures of her day and the 2 others to exemplify exactly what you're talking about with. The development of journalism as a profession the 1st being a man in Julian Ralph who wrote you know what you call that that story model of journalism that that he was interested in in writing. And you write in a way that it would bring the whole drama. To the readers. A little longer form narrative version of the trial Yeah yeah I mean I think of him in that kind of New Yorker a style of see the writer in a list of even though he was he was working for a daily paper and then there was. A real character of the highest paid columnist in his day named Joe Howard Jr who was covering the trial for The Boston Globe. And he was the sort of person who was himself a celebrity so he's covered by the other journalists as he's covering the story right exactly and that too so that's part of. The so I guess the subtext of my of my point there is that you describe something so well that we the reader we get to know why it was that Lizzie Borden not the 1st person that ever you know committed patricide or parasite killing her parents as it were even though the other was a stepmother she wasn't the 1st she was in the last but there's something about her story and I think it's a little bit like the o.j. Simpson case in the sense that the o.j. Simpson case would never have been what it became of it hadn't been for the 24 hour news cycle and that the technical ability in the interest level that people had in covering something live an ongoing much like in the case of the Al Cowlings you know famous you know white Ford Bronco thing that it just 30 years earlier the story might not have been what it became But it was it was sort of perfect in that in that in the in the sort of the meadow arc of journalism that it landed right where it did and it changed everything just like this and I think that's one of the reasons why we're still talking about Lizzie Borden to this day. Yeah I think that's a I think that's a good point and the parallel the parallel with o.j. Simpson has always struck me too. Again and I thought informally of the of the newspaper men as as the. An earlier version of of camp o.j. Having grown up in l.a. I remember I remember the scene a little bit right and. One of the one of the other things about it is that as you say it's just the timing. And but along with that time I mean both trials seem to be about something that's more than the fate of the particular defendant I mean it touches it touches a tender point in the society. So I think that. It's a combination of the 2 things as you say the technological advances that so that and the Lizzie Borden trial you have these telegraph wires strung to makeshift shed for make sure that everyone in the country can follow along as the trial happened with extras being put out every day. But that it was it was not just a particular gruesome trial as it was a symptom but but there seemed to be something at stake for a lot of people well I think that's the parallel to in the sense that o.j. Simpson. Touched on this racial 3rd rail in our country that. It create a lot of sparks and and it electrified the country as right away this was sort of turning into a proxy war and all of these different issues that had been in this is covered you know beautifully in that academy award winning documentary about it that the you just can't get away from the racial issues around the o.j. Simpson trial anymore that you can get away from this sort of growing understanding of the role of women in latter day American Victorian circles and part of what's so shocking was for some people there was this really was still a belief at the time when when Lizzie Borden committed these crimes that women didn't do this that this was not women were not capable of doing this and that part of what you know for a lot of people they just couldn't ever get over the fact that a woman could never be that violent so it must have been a guy. Right clearly if the trial would have been a lot different if if it had been a son right the Borden's been accused I mean it there there was no sign that. But I think that the it's a combination of the gender and class and the ethnicity and the you know the way in which does form a potent cocktail together so there's a definite sense that there are some women who might be capable of something like that. But certainly not someone like Lizzie Borden who ticks all the boxes respectable feminist. Sunday school teacher at the local Congregational Church. Woman without a hint of scandal really up until that point. To bar you know to use the term spinster somebody who is considered almost a non member of society a non player and and yet obviously for some people that there was me she was we can look at it and say well that's just that's