Best ride the crux, sp of acceptability. Journalism is a rough business. To get to the truth what i lot of people in public bodies are lying and obif you skating, sometimes journalists have to play dirty, too, and to pretend otherwise i think is ridiculous. The mirror in my time i believe operated legally but operated right on that line. We drove very, very hard to expose wrongdoing where we saw tto investigate wars, to investigate political lying and so on. Now, now the line is let. Legality. There is law. There is british law. There is american law. Its there, and it wasnt enforced in britain. Rose piers morgan for the hour next. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose piers morgan is here. He is the host of piers morgan tonight. It is the twoyear anniversary of the shows launch. He has interviewed, a colorfulivate of the guests. They range from paris hilton to the calledy lma. Earlier in his career he headline the sun and daily mirror. He is bringing his appetite for controversy to america. I am pleased to have him on this program. Welcome. epoood to see you. Good to see you, charlie. Rose i want to just go to gun control because you waded into this battle. Was there a particular thing that set you off, other than the tragedy of 20 innocent children . Yeah. It was actually it was earlier than that. When i began at cnn in january 2010, it was a week after Gabby Giffords had been shot. And i was completely shocked, not just by what happened to her and the six people who got killed but the fact that after a week of mourning and general chatter about a debate about gun control, nothing happened. So a congresswoman could be nearly murdered, at pointblank range by a deranged man way bunch of firearms and no action was taken to tray to prevent this happening again. And from then on, there was a pattern of these massacres and mass shootings. They came with alarming reg layerity in america and nothing ever got done. I really exploded after the Aurora Movie Theater shooting. Because there you had a young man who had acquired four firearms perfectly legally, including one of these ar15 assault rifles. Me then got 6,000 rounds of amnition anonymously on the internet, and he had dressed up as the joker and gone to a Movie Theater and gunned down a Record Number of americans in one single shooting, 70 people, and killed 12. And it was an event of such ferocity and horror, i thought this will surely now drive change. And nothing happened. And so when sandy hook happened, to me was it had to be a Tipping Point. You couldnt now have, after aurora, a few months before, 20 Young Children blown to pieces with three to 11 bullets each from the same weapon that had been used in aurora and not do something as a civilized humain society. And what brought it really to vogue for me, sandy hook, was it was almost identical to what happened in a school in scott rant in the mid90s where a deranged man had taken guns spy school and killed 16 children. I never covered a more awful story in terms of the gutwretching images of these poor parents sprinting to the school. Im a father of four kids. Like all parents, i drop my kids off at school and you hand them over and you expect to get them back. And it was just awful. And it was exactly the same, watching sandy hook pim turned on cnn and there were these parents racing to the school, the same terror in their faces. And i thought, this this doesnt look right. They were saying one person had been killed. Parents dont react like that if they think thats whats happening and slowly will it came out throughoutidate and it got worse and worse and worse. And i thought this is the end. You captain allow this to continue in america. You have to do something. In britain, we brought in draconian gun laws. We banned all hand guns. Never mind assault weapones, they went as well. Rose did you confiscate hand guns in britain. As in australia in the mid90, almost at the same time in both countries, a ban on all assault weapones, almost all handgunes, and there was a Buyback Program where you could hand them in and the government could compensate you for it and after an extended period of time it was illegal to own these. The problem with america you couldnt do that. There are 300 million guns in circulation. And i dont think any american under the right to bear arms amendment in the constitution, any conif you confiscation. In california they got 2,000 handed in, in one day. It was a start. People were handing in rocket launchers, charlie, in los angeles. You know, i look at britain. I look at australia. I looked at the reaction that happened to those massacres there, and it was very different to here. It wasnt awe political issue. It wasnt 11 and right. The australian Prime Minister, john howard, wrote in the new york times, fascinating piece about rose what he did. He was considered pretty far right conservative, but he brought in really draconian gun control, and as he pointed out,ain massacres per the port arthur massacre which was a Tipping Point in the previous 10 or 12 years, i think it was. And since 1996 not a single one. And in britain a very similar story. Rose does britain, does australia have the power of an nra lobby like we do here . No, absolutely not. Rose is that the critical difference. Critical difference, but also the gun culture here is completely different. You know, i grew up in a small village in the south of england where nobody had a gun, other than a farmer who would use it for hunting or shooting or people going to a target range. They were just unheard of for people to actually is ray gun at home for selfprotection. Americans have always believed since gaining independence that you need to have a firearm at home to protect yourself and your family, and the vast majority of americans do that. I have no problem with that. I understand and respect that. I believe thats what the Founding Fathers fully intend by the second amendment. What i find unfathomable is the reality of what is going on now with these derranged young men it always seems to be a pattern of deranged young men who may have been tipped over by video games, hollywood movies who knows what the final edge point is. Rose in some cases it might be biological. Right. I cant go to walmart and buy sick packets of sued fred. I kaund buy six or seven varietyes of french cheese because of the bacterial threat rose but you can buy a gun at a gun show. I can buy an ar15 at walmart. I can go down and buy this killing machine. The gun lobby will say theyre just another rifle. Get on youtube. Look at what people are doing there and showing how an ar15 performs when it has a magazine with 100 bullets as james holmes, the shooter in aroara used. These are machine guns. And they are designed with one specific purpose mass legislature. You cant use them for hunting. You cant use them really for shooting in terms of a sport because theyre just killing machines. They just fire off. And if you use the new bullet designs, which you can get, which a friend of mine is a surgeon in los angeles. Hes a bone surge. He repairs the damage from all the gangland shootups in the south of los angeles. And he sent me some pictures last night which showed the damage that some of these new bullets can do from an ar15 in particular. The philosophy they go into the body and the way they explode when theyre inside you is absolutely terrifying. And it brings me to my repeated question to all these gun rights guests that i have ive got a problem with you i dont have a problem with you owning a pistol. Why does anybody need one of these . Rose what do they say . They dont have an answer. The only answer ive had is theyre fun. One gun right lobbyist said to me, they are the ferrari of guns. Rose therefore, one answer to that proposed by some people is okay have these gun clubs. You go to the gun club to shoot. You go to your locker. And you get your gun. And then when you leave the gun club you put your gun back. Would you be in favor of that . Id certainly be more in favor of that rose would you be willing to in a better world to allow that . If you were getting to a place of compromise, that would certainly be a sensible place to start. Thats what happens in britain. You can still and go use them for sport but they are kept in a secure rose for target practice. You have to have a license and renew my brother is a british army colonel. Hes fought in expafg iraq, alongside american troops. Hes used all these firearms but he said when people come out of the army, if they try and get one of these weapons for civilian use, the amount of checks that go on in britain would stagger you. It goes on for months. You have to go you have to provide references. People have to vouch per for you pup have medical checks. You have psychological checks. Its a completely different ball game. And the result is this in britain, since 1996, we have averaged between 30 and 60 gun murderaise year. Its very consistent. In 2011, a record low i think of 39. In america, 11,000 to 12,000 a year in the same period. Add to, that 18,000 americans who kill themselves with guns. Rose is this different than any controversy you have been involved in or any cause youve been involved in so that somebody wouldnt say, this is just perfect for piers because he wants to be in the middle of where the conversation is and he is dramatically taken sides here, and it puts him in focus. The only thing ive been involved with like this was the iraq war, where at the daily mirror we took a position against the iraq war, and it was significant because the mirror was seen to be the labor supporting newspaper and i was friends with tony blair and we clashed over that. We tried to persuade the government not to go to war in iraq. The irony for me was my own brother was fighting on the front line in iraq at the time and it was a very intense period and in the end it led to my departure from the paper because we were given some photographs of british troops apparently abusing iraqis, which may or may not have been fake. We never really found out about them, but i left. Rose there was more to that than that, though, wasnt it . The question was whether, you know, if those photos were fake . Heres the reality, i certainly didnt know they were fake. The idea i would have published any pictures knowing they were fake is ridiculous and offensive and ive always made that clear to people. The reality is we had two soldiers come to us. They album full of photographs of them with soldiers in the period they were talk ug about. And then they had these other pictures of troops with their faces cut off the pictures, apparently urinating and abusing iraqi civilians. Now, i was fired over this because the ministry of defense, who wed given these pictures to before publication and who raised no question of authentickivity we investigated this for three months. We only published it because it came after abu ghraib. Rose why did they fire you . Because i refused to apologize. And we went to war on the pretext of weapons of mass destruction that didnt exist. Lets see the veracity of these pictures. Heres whats happened since. About a year ago, members of the queens lancarbir regimen that we had accused came to court. Some were courtmartials. A Commanding Officer said his men behaved like a pack of wild animals during that period purpose they were brought to book eventually. Nobody questioned the veracity of the story we publish with the pictures. What is the truth about those pictures . I still dont know. What i do know is no one has ever been prosecuted for faking them. No one has been brought to work for faking them. We have the word of the regimen, which has been discredited, and the government, which we know, told a pack of lives. Rose interesting way you were fired. Didnt you get a call saying come to the office. We will have security walk you out. You will not go back to your office. I had been there 11 years. Rose what was the paper . The daily mirror. When americans say tabloid they think national enquirer. I was there a long time. We can a lot of work. Rose how many years were you editor . 11 years editor in chief. Rose were you at the news of the world . I was briefly in the mid90s for about a year. Rose and the sun . I worked on the sun in the late rose but you were not the editor . No, i was just a reporter there. Rose so why you know, when people talk to me about you, especially those people in reflecte reflected in vanity fair as you know. Yes. Rose there is this story, there is this belief that you were central to hacking at some point, not the most recent it episodes, were you . What did you do . No, its complete nonsense. Rose what was it everybody believes you did and why do they believe it . As one of them told vanity fair my old journalist friends back in britain like to get together every two and three months and try to come up with a story to get you fired. So the agenda is pretty obvious. Rose why do they have an agenda against piers morgan . I was a pretty provocative editor. I was competitive. Rose this is to get even even though youre working in new york nothing irks them more than the fact i rose from the ashes of being unser monessly dumped in the street from the kal mirror. It is a very serious journalistic job. Rose tell me people said, he has never really talked about this sufficiently about what he knew and what he did, acknowledged what he did. Let me make it clear again because i have repeatedly said the same thing. I never hacked a phone. I never told anybody to hack a phone. I never published any story knowing it to come from the hacking of a phone. I dont know how more unequivocal i can be. Rose never hacked a phone. Never hacked a phone. Rose never seen information from a hacked phone that you knowingly knew was illegally obtained. Right, never told anybody to hack a phone. Never publish any story believing it was from a hacked phone, period. Enemies of mine can try to drag me into this as they have done all they like and i say to them, produce the evidence. Stop the chat, produce the evidence rose no one steps forward to say piers morgan was engaged in hacking. Oh, no, some people have without any evidence. Well, i can do that. Rose bought butt youre saying here and everywhere else, i never did it. Had nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with hacking whatsoever, whatsoever. Rose what did jeremy whats his name testify to about you and hacking . Hes a big interrogator. He said he came to a lunch, which he did at the mirror. I used to hold monthly lunches. A group of fun people, politicians, political journalistes, celebrities and so on. And he said i told him how to hack a phone. Actually what i did was i wander him about the practice of hacking. As i recorded in my own book, i had been wander myself. I was being investigate over something by the government, stock tipping thing. And in the course of it, i couldnt understand why so many stories about me were leaking out from the investigation, and somebody said to me, they might be hacking your phone. I said, whats that . They said, if you dont change your fourdigit security number, then in the old days, you could call a mobile phone, cell phone, and hear peoples messages. I said, really . After that i i began telling other people as i recorded in my book sphwhru told jeremy i told museum russell people and yet he managed to phrase it in such a suspicious way quite deliberately. Morgan told me how to hack a phone. And thats how it became a story in the paper the next day. And i thought this is utterly ridiculous. Ive given the guy a warning. If i was involved in hacking celebrity phones because i wanted to pub the stories, why would i be warning them all . Rose so when you were doing this, how widespread was it, even if you didnt do it . This was all before what happened to it news of the world. By what, 10 years . Look, i left fleet street in 2004. Rose okay, less than 10 years. Right. I havent been there for nearly a decade. As i said to the levinson inquiry rose why do they want to talk to you . Because enough people had come out and tried to smear me. And i wanted to talk to them. And i tried as best i could to go over it all and to say what i could remember, which, by the way, was very little. I said, look, in my book, i know in january, whenever it was, 2001, i was wander about the practice of hacking. I heard, like a lot of people, rumors about it. You know, that people would say the reason that paper got that story was from hacking. I never saw hard evidence of that. I never had any concrete evidence of that. But i heard rumors. And then in twowp 6, two years after i left fleet street, one of the news of the world journalists was arrested, charged, and jailed for phone hacking. Dismafts first time id seen it real, concrete, okay, so this is rose and reached out to a whole range of people, rebecca books being one. Did he work for you . Yeah, rebecca worked for me. Rose you knew her well. Were you surprised by this . Lets wait and see what happens with the court cases. Q. You think on appeal they wil . There will be court cases and well swe what happens. Rebecca is one of the best journalists i are worked with my life of my life and also a close friend of mine. Rose and a very close friend to rupert. Very close friend to rupert, and i dont recognize the caricature of her being put out there by people. Rose how about the editor of the paper and went to work worry david. Andy, he was a very good editor and a very good righthand man to David Cameron and did a great job for him. I think he misses him now. Again for andy, i i dont recognize the caricature. Rose what do you believe happened . I think there was a political witchhunt going on, a get murdoch campaign, and he inspired anger and resentment from the left in britain and i think certain newspapers decided were going to go for him. And they got lucky and exposed what was a completely unacceptable practice going on amongst i think rose you dont doubt it was going on. You doubt who might be involved. From the scale of what came out you have to assume it was going on in a widespread scale amongst, i believe, a small number of people. And i think thats what will emerge in the end. 101 journalists or 101 people, including journalists, have now been arrested for payments to officials and so on. Rose youre saying rebecca brooks will never go to jail . No, im not saying that. Im saying let justice run its course. Lets see. I dont recognize the caricature of her in the way that has been portrayed. Rebecca is a good friend of mine. Shes a great person. Shes a brilliant journalist. She rose right to the top rose she was running everything over there. And she is a very smart person. Rose so shes a scapegoat . Shes what . A victim . Lets wait and see what she is. I hope she turns out to be a completely innocent woman and gets back to what she was good at. Rose what has it changed in london, in Great Britain about the relationship between murdoch and the gov