Well go through some of the details. Whats your initial blush on this . Is your reaction that its politically motivated . He is a democrat. The president s a democrat. Much of the administration is democratic appointees, and others. Why would they be doing it, and if so, what is the point . Well, my initial take is that its not politically motivated its that when you read the indictment, theres a real case here. Now, obviously, the congressman is presumed innocent, but its gonna be a tough climb for him because theyve got a lot of goods. Theres a lot there. He did say hes gonna stay in office. He will not resign. He stepped down from a subcommittee appropriations level appointment in the house so that he wouldnt have to be dealing with money issues. But nonetheless, hes staying in office. And well read a statement from him, saying that he has as i previously stated, ive never participated in any illegal activity or misappropriation of taxpayer dollars as an elected official. He says theres just no way, sam. And the government says, oh there is a way, that you took 1 million illegally and then tried to repay 400,000 and then a few hundredthousand here and there from not only grant money, but, also, from federal dollars and then charities. Well, as you started, this was a criminally motivated, not a politically motivated, investigation. And the idea, if you recall back in 2007, the campaignfinance rules as they related to philadelphia elections changed and very severe caps were imposed on the individual and pac contributions that could be made. I suspect at some point the fattah campaign for mayor realized that it was gonna be dollars short, so a very clever, but criminal scheme was conceived, if in fact proven true, to make loans to consulting groups, which would then spend the money on behalf of the fattah campaign. And when those loans were called for repayment, the public part of it was to appropriate funds to Nonprofit Organizations which would then hire those consulting groups, who would be paid for no service, but would repay the loan. And thats a criminal enterprise. And if, in fact, that proves to be true, it not only stains the congressman, but all of these nonprofits that localgovernment officials have been creating around philadelphia for years, whether to fight poverty or to promote education or charter schools, has created a trap into which many of them have fallen and have been prosecuted and sent to jail. And i would be very surprised if this was not one of those. Now, he has not been booked yet. He has not made an appearance at u. S. District court. We dont know when thats going to come. But we do know that he has a serious legal interest here. Hes got to hire a team of lawyers to try to rebut this. His son also had some legal issues a year ago almost to the day, has been charged with federal tax evasion and lying about a student loan that apparently is embroiled in a repayment by his dad, allegedly. So is it a father son issue here, renee . What is the backstory here . The backstory, first, is very sad. Let me be very clear about that. Fattah has done something for his community. And they have some mixed messages and feelings, also, about this whole thing. But thats gonna override, you know, because of this whole piece. And the father and son have done some negative things, and people are not happy about it, and its very damaging to who they are and what theyre about. And so this is gonna be an ongoing thing. And to me, its an uphill battle. And youre absolutely right, larry. I hate to agree with you, but, you know, youre innocent until Proven Guilty, you know, and so we have to wait and see. But hes gonna have a real difficult time, cause these things are very serious. Four other people were also named in that indictment bonnie bowser, a chief of staff of his. Karen nicholas ran the nonprofit for him. Herb vederman, a lobbyist, was his campaignfinance director when he ran for mayor and had worked under rendell, as well, during his mayoral term. And robert brand, a fattah friend. And the allegation is not just the money, but, also, that allegedly, fattah would use his power to try to get positions or at least access to the Obama Administration appointments to ambassadorships and that kind of thing. Some people would say thats politics as usual, that its pay to play and that people use their power to offer access and to get money, that its sort of a quid pro quo that might not be legal, but it happens a lot, people say. Well, its not legal, and when it does happen, its not unusual for those with wealth, for them to use the wealth to influence, benefit for themselves. But usually, its a bit more subtle, and its not in your face. But it is illegal, and it should not be usual, and especially in a system where we have a history of institutionalized corruption. But, having said that, i think these are sweeping allegations against congressman fattah, and we have to, also, as renee pointed out, you have to look at the context of ones career, not just the allegations of misdoings. If they turn out to be true, it would be stunning, especially for those who have placed so much confidence in and like the fattah family and others involved in this. The bigger issue for me is how many of these figurative and literal perp walks do we need to go through to have a discussion about the culture of corruption in this town . Renee said this is sad, and thats sort of what bob bradys quote said and other politicians. And im not sure its sad. I think its outrageous. And im waiting for the local politician to say this culture of corruption that defines the way we do business in this town is utterly outrageous and not acceptable. I think the allegations are outrageous, but until we know them to be true, we have to sort of reserve judgment. One thing that i think we ought to be focused on, the second Congressional District has 280,000 households, of which 20 live below 10,000 per year annual household income. Absolutely. 33 of kids under age 18 live below the poverty line. Thats right. Thats higher than the National Poverty line. 65,000 individuals in the second Congressional District dont have a highschool diploma, of which 16,000 do not even get to ninth grade. And the allegations are and, by the way, that Second District has been poor nationally for years, for decades, and it will be so whether congressman fattah gets a chance to finish the work that he started or whether somebody else comes in and does it. That constituency needs help today. Right. Well, there has been other reaction, as well. You mentioned bob brady there, u. S. Representative. Also, mayor nutter had called fattah a longtime champion for philadelphia. He did direct a lot of money here for science and education. But some people would look at the irony and say, if it turns out to be true and, again, he is innocent until Proven Guilty if the allegations are true that he steered money towards some and robbed peter to pay paul, took it from others allegedly, from charities that felt they were giving to members of the Second District or young people who were deserving in the Second District. I think youre seeing the circling of the wagons. This is what happens in philadelphia when legislators get gifts, when congressmen use federal funds to abet and aid their own political interests. What happens . No one calls for anything other than lets wait and see. If a member of the Nutter Administration had lunch with somebody inappropriately because the ethics rules of City Government prohibit them from having lunch, theyd be fired. And everybody in philadelphia today who has power and has influence is saying, oh, hes a good man. Lets wait and see. No one has stood up and said anything to condemn the actions for which he has been accused. And, in fact, it seems to me that other than the inquirer, no one has called for his resignation. Fattah should resign. And does that speak to his power, that people are afraid to accuse him . Fattah should resign. He should resign. He knows that the trail of money that goes from a federal appropriation to a Nonprofit Organization to a consultant back to the person who lent his Campaign Money he already knows that they have that evidence, because thats the basis for this case. I think youre absolutely right. You should think about running for mayor. [ laughs ] no. And look, there is this culture of corruption in philadelphia. Jeremy nowak on the philadelphia citizen last week found this study that shows that the average citizen pays 1,300 a year as a corruption tax. That is unacceptable. As a de facto corruption tax. And yet, when a story like this comes along, it does feel, as sam pointed out, like business as usual, instead of like, whoa, we got to change some things. But theyre not gonna do it. The politicians arent gonna do it. Its gonna have to take other folks to do it. Theyre not gonna step out and do it. Theyre doing what they need to do, they think. And so we shouldnt even think that. You really shouldnt run for mayor. You should run for congress. [ laughs ]. In that district. Im running for my life. [ laughs ] me too. But the bottom line, theyre not gonna do it. We have to get the community to really make a big difference out of this thing and the business folks until something really happens. But its going full circle. Its not gonna happen right now. Allegedly, he did try to block part of the investigation when there was an interest in his congressional record and votes that he had made and interest that he had shown in certain areas, perhaps about the ambassadorship on herb vedermans part. Were you surprised that he would try to block part of it and then deny the allegations . No. Im not surprised at all about the whole thing. You know, weve been talking about this kind of stuff for years. Its not just two years hes been investigated. At least seven years. Right. You know, lets be clear about this. This has been going on with the charities and all these things. And of course youre gonna block it, cause youre gonna say, i didnt do it. But im with you, sam. Lets resign, and lets move on so we can start fresh and help those constituents that you talked about, ajay. They really need a lot of help. And what about the racketeering charge as an attorney . Tell me, he at least chaka fattahs initial comment when he was interviewed moments after this indictment came down, he not only denied doing it he said he was innocent, as i just quoted but he also said he didnt get this rico charge. Where is that coming from . Thats often a tool used by the federal government to try to get members of the mafia historically, and other people as well. So explain why, you know, maybe they would have chosen racketeering. Well, i think the allegations are sweeping, and i think the tactics that the feds are using are if you look at a level of specificity in the detail, and also, the people, how farreaching it is. I think theyre throwing everything that they can find on this, and it has been two years in the making. And if those allegations prove to be true, sam, youre right. We would be stunned. But i think until we have the justice process worked through some of us are patient about it not because we are patient about corruption as much as we believe that, you know, they have to at least have justice play its course. My point on that is not that he should be found guilty before the trial. Its that his ability to represent the second Congressional District and the people of pennsylvania has been so severely compromised that between now and the end of that period of trial, fattah will have no capacity and no credibility to do anything on behalf of his people. So you agree he should resign . I think there is so much distraction right now. I know he just recently won the election, even with the cloud hanging over him, with 88 support. But now, with all of the distraction, i think for congressman fattah to do the good work that he has to do in order to lift those remember, one of the poorest Congressional Districts in the country, with such dire needs. I mean, for him, even with all of the status and with even all of the influence that he has and knowledge he has to how to navigate the inner workings of capitol hill, i think its time that he stepped aside so that good work could continue. And you had said not much gets done, and thats disappointing, in your opinion with politicians reacting to it, but in fact, there was something that was proposed, mayor nutter as well as Council President darrell clarke, among others are looking to possibly and the ethics board leader looking to possibly change or tighten up the citys campaignfinance disclosure when it comes to nonprofits and corporations so that perhaps as a reaction to this. Perhaps it was in the works but it wouldnt happen again so easily. Thats a reaction to the socalled dark money in the recent Mayoral Election which, by the way, im not so sure was that hidden. Like, we all know that the money came from the susquehanna guys for tony williams, and the money came from John Docherty for jim kenney. I think that and maybe im the cynical journalist at the table i think this was really about payback against the philadelphia businessmen who started philly 3. 0 to try and influence the makeup of the city council. And they didnt release who their donors were, cause the City Council Also just hiked the parking tax as a way to stick it to rob zuritsky and his father joe zuritsky, who started that group. I think thats what this is really about, but, then again, im a cynical journalist. [ laughs ] i think you would be right. I think thats true. All right. Before we go to break, lets talk quickly about one other issue, and then we have many others to cover the budget that has been proposed at the state level by the new governor. Tom wolf has not gotten much traction, and in fact, the house on both sides have said, no way, no how. Really, after a month of both sides appearing to dig in, there doesnt appear to be a compromise in the offing. Where are we gonna be sitting september 1, october 1 november 1 . Is this gonna become such an impasse, renee, that State Government has to partially shut down . Are we looking at dire situation . Well, speaking to some of my friends in harrisburg, its a serious issue. Its gonna be i think sam said just a while back a long, hot summer in harrisburg. Theyre still digging in. Theyre gonna continue to do that. You know, theyre talking about veto, no veto, you know, of this whole budget and stuff. Theyre gonna have to compromise, because the more these folks, the agencies cant pay their staff and theyre funded by the state its gonna get worse. The pressures gonna get worse. So something will be done. So, do you think a veto can be overriden . I mean, is this, you know, a chess match that somebodys gonna win, or is it gonna be checkmate . Theyll need 12 democrats in the house and 3 in the senate to override that. So who wins . Theyre not gonna get that. I dont think that the legislature and the governor are gonna talk again until the middle of september. Right . The legislature is out. A lot of things are gonna sort of shut down as we head into the period when pope francis is visiting philadelphia and pennsylvania. But the fundamental problem here isnt about votes. Its about ideology. You have a democratic governor who has committed himself to the most obvious parts of the coalition teachers, unions, keeping the Liquor Stores in the states hands, letting the Pension System basically not be dramatically changed. And republicans diametrically opposed on all that. And republicans, who were elected not to raise taxes. And as i said before, 60 of the members of the general assembly, both houses, were elected not to raise taxes, and this governor wants to raise them not a little bit. Where do they find compromise . The ideological gap is so wide. Right. And the governor doesnt have the votes, and i would say he doesnt have the votes from the democrats. All right. Well have to leave it at that. Western pennsylvania democrats are not going for this. I said that earlier. Who wins . Were going to be watching. Ill take a break, and inside story continues right after this. Inside story is presented by temple university. Temple fuels students with academics and opportunities to take charge. Plugged into the city, powered by the world. Temple. Edu takecharge. Welcome back to inside story. The pope, of course, is coming to the philadelphia area in less than 60 days. Some people are beginning to get concerned about the logistics, not only the safety aspect protecting him, protecting these massive crowds of millions of people it will double the size of the city for a couple of days at least but just trying to get people who might need Emergency Medical Care through what appears to be a huge swath of the city thats going to be obviously shut down by fencing and other reasons to keep the pope safe and give him access. City planners have been working on it for a while. Septas issued some attempts at making passes available to people. But the first time, ajay, it shut down their website, so many people wanted those 10 passes so then they had to rethink it and there was a lottery system. Some people are wondering, is this gonna be a mess . Its gonna be a mess. Im gonna be out of town. [ laughs ] ive secured an airbnb at the vatican. I hear theres a vacancy. Yes. [ laughter ] no. I think is the city up for this . No, i think the city is up for it. We have done big events before. You know, were up for it. I think its gonna generate a half a billion dollars worth of impact, and we have to do these security logistics. I know that the citizens are clamming for more information clamoring for more information. They want more. But, you know, think about the logistics involved. And what they cannot do is reveal all of their logistic plans, because that would really undermine their planning process. And, two, theyre not the only ones involved. You have the feds involved, the Homeland Security involved. Sure. So theyre not the only ones with a heavy thumb on the scale here. I think we have to let the process go through. I found it very impressive how septa and others are, quite frankly, at least getting a peek from the inside from some of the insiders, how organized they really are and how prepared that they are. I think well be just fine. We havent had big e