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And moral panic campaigns. that's such an incredible noise that, of course, you canfind... it's a loud noise. but, for example, just today, i went on the direkt36 website. yes. now, they're a big player in the hungarian media. a lot of particularly young hungarians follow them. their lead headline today is, quote, "database exposes hungarian 0ligarchs "hiding huge fortunes." you know, this is being published day by day in hungary and people are reading it. you know, you cannot suggest to me that hungary is a police state where 0rban ensures that criticism is nullified. it's not a police state....

Because the hungarian election system is majoritarian. so either—or, it's winner takes all. so they have to work together. but before each elections, the election rules are changed. either the party financing or how opposition parties can cooperate. there were, in the last five years, more than 12 or 20 changes in the election rules. i don't think anybody would dispute that 0rban has tried using his power in the parliament to make the playing field as favourable to him as he possibly can — within the rules, within the constitution. i understand that. but your case is somewhat exaggerated, ...

The constitution court members, the competition office, the media authorities is all nominated by viktor 0rban. and these institutions are there formally, but they actually do not work. the thing is, what is the right response, then, for believers in democracy such as yourself? i have to be honest with you, i noticed that, in the arc of your career, you walked away from politics for a while, then you came back in 2012. you tried to establish a party called together. and if i'm not wrong, in 2018, when togetherfought in the election of 2018, i think you scored less than 1% of the national vote....

The generation of politicians which are characterised by fidesz, viktor 0rban�*s party, where i started my political career 32 years ago, we thought we are the party of the west. actually, 0rban, even 15 years ago, mentioned in a speech that fidesz party is the new western generation, and what we see today is everything but that. so that, of course, makes me very sad. and i think hungary is a trouble for hungarians, and also for europeans. yeah, the scale of the trouble that you see hungary being in is pretty obvious — if one looks at the title of your new book, viktor 0rban, you call it, ...

Now, this is the incredible message control which viktor 0rban and his party can do with their media dominance. but of course, it doesn't answer the question what it is about the opposition. mm. the opposition is definitely in a bad shape. it's after the elections. they have to figure out a new strategy. they also have a problem of... it's a chronic leadership crisis. this is a conversation that goes far beyond just hungary. you know, there are many parts of the world where, frankly, illiberal democracy, if we use 0rban's term, or indeed authoritarianism, are on the rise. and one can only sort...