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The words corruptly because that's important seek to obstruct or impede. if you cannot charge people who were involved in january 6th with obstruction, then it sort of doesn't -- it stops being a felony and becomes a misdemeanor, which is disruption, which is more like protest and that's the argument i guess i'm over simplifying it here but that seems to be the legal argument some of these people make. it was a disruption, a protest, versus the bstruction of an official proceeding. that's what this hangs on. >> exactly. so what she refers to the words corruptly and impeding, that's the languag...

The january 6th committee and if they find, as i suspect they will that donald trump violated 1512, then i think it's their obligation to make a referral to the justice department for a criminal prosecution of the former president. i know that's a very serious thing. i don't say that lightly but that's because what happened on january 6th was deadly serious. >> well, let's follow that to it natural conclusion. a lot of people say this january 6th committee is piling up lots of evidence that perhaps merrick garland and the justice department should do something with. the criminal referral they ...

Liz cheney believes there could be groundwork for criminal charges. 18 usc 1512, the obstruction statute. any chance we see the committee actually subpoena donald trump himself? >> you know, probably. it's interesting that liz cheney is talking like a prosecutor. as you say, katie, she's using the precise language of the federal statute 1512 that reads, whoever corruptly instructs, influences or impedes any official proceeding or attempts to do so shall be imprisoned for not more than 20 years. these are the words that liz cheney is using to describe some of donald trump's conduct. interesting...

Down the middle applicable here. there are some very high fa luting ones that are very serious, some minor ones. but it says if you impede an official proceeding, that is a felony subject to 20 years. people have tried to argue congress's certification wasn't an official proceeding but i don't think that will fly. indeed, a trump judge, just this week, held that it doesn't fly. so, i think they are telegraphing pretty strongly they are going to involve them. and then, once they find a strong case and they've as much as developed it already for 1512, they can make a criminal referral pretty eas...

Or inaction, corruptly seek to obstruct or impede congress' official proceedings to count electoral votes? we know that for 187 minutes, president trump refused to act. and he refused to act when his action was required. it was essential. and it was compelled by his duty, compelled by his oath of office. >> liz cheney, she's not being shy, joyce. it sure sounds like to me she's laying the groundwork for potential criminal charges against donald trump, specifically 18 usc 1512, the federal obstruction statute. do you think we're going to see a prosecution under that? and do you think he's going...