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And i think that's what i mentioned, i think now that say preparation, not to scale back or move out, it is a preparation to claim victory, that is originally it was all about donetsk and luhansk. it is all in the rhetoric. the rhetoric was very cleverly put together at the beginning. it is not a war. it is all about the brothers and donetsk and luhansk. they can actually retreat back. i don't know how long the continuous fight will be, but they already are preparing the claim of victory when there is no victory. but they can sell it as such. >> professor nina khrushcheva, always an education ...

Discussion of withdrawal. just as you said the russians cannot be -- cannot be rewarded for this kind of destruction that they have wrought. and then the question about what about these other parts of ukraine, i don't think president zelenskyy is willing to give up those parts of ukraine. he suggested a longer-term discussion about crimea, for example. he said he can have a conversation with president putin about donetsk and luhansk in the east. he's not giving up and said he's going to have to consult with the ukrainian people. he's given some real thought, serious thought about what could go...