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President had no credibility on this issue when he spoke, look, when he said that in 2009, june of 2009, he knew that the congressional budget office in march of 2010, excuse me, that the bill would not allow that to happen. in march of 2010 the congressional budget office said 3 million people will lose their employer provided coverage as a result of the affordable care act. they updated that number in february and march of this year. they now say eight million people will lose their coverage. the department of health and human services actuaries at cms, no, it will be 14 million people. righ...

Their employer-provided coverage as a result of the affordable care act. that number was updated in march by the congressional budget office to 8 billion. the actuaries at the center for medicaid and medicare at the department of health and human services say it's going to be 14 million. we are now starting to see an ever increasing number of people losing their coverage. that's going to have real consequences for the cost of this program and for the people's happiness with it. >> all right. well, that's the big picture. the program, sort of the short run is this enrollment in this web site. a...

For health insurance, you go into what the actuaries call a death spiral. and if you start taking away the other aspects of revenue for this thing, obamacare's going to get very expensive without paying for itself very, very quickly. martha: do you buy into robert gibbs' argument that if it weren't for the shutdown, the real catastrophe that is the rollout of this plan would be much more front and center on people's minds? >> oh, i mean, i very rarely find myself saying words like i agree with robert gibbs, but there are a lot of conservatives who have been saying this for a while. charles kra...

Obamacare they are changing the way that they do health care. companies like ibm around time warner who have been pushed off their plans. the reason they cited was obamacare. so i don't know how you can say that. >> is it possible -- i think you asked me a question. is it possible companies are saying this and it isn't because of obamacare? what is it in obamacare that makings you push your employees off insurance? >> because you don't have to pay for insurance for part-time employees. >> that is their choice. not something that obamacare does. >> look, obamacare in of itself had this whole go...

Kick people off the health plans because you have exchanges. currently in america -- >> the, changes are good. >> who says exchanges are good? what is better the private insurance option which most wealthy people in america who don't care about obamacare -- or exchanges that don't have real competition, kirsten. >> here is the thing, first of all talk about the cbo. cbo already has been proven wrong. >> i said the gao. government accounting office. >> you also said cbo and republican -- >> actuaries. no i didn't. >> cbo turns out all their projections how expensive obamacare were going to be a...