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Which is what they thought was the aircraft capability of the separatists was. this plane was flying at 30,000 feet and these more sophisticated weapons were able to reach that high. secondly, what also seems to be coming out is that this plane was flying a slightly different route than the same flight had been flying the previous nights because of weather or because of wind favor ability, who knows. it's possibly the separatists did not expect to see a commercial airline flying in that particular spot at that particular moment. >> let's take a closer look at the pro russian rebels who the ukr...

More recently, of any aircraft capability. missiles. they can shoot anything that goes overhead. we get in there, we start losing pilots and start losing planes and start getting captives. how can you bail out over damascus? >> any casual talk of a no-fly zone, even a sort of safe haven for refugees, you know, has to be looked at with a grain of salt. because of the sophisticated air defense system built by the russians, we, you know, it's not libya. we can't do this. you will probably have to put some boots on the ground and have a sort of more extensive operation against their extensive anti...

>> let me ask you about this problem we have. military logistics and military strategy. if we start flying over the country, they apparently have a tremendously state of the art soviet system, russian-backed more recently, of any aircraft capability. missiles. they can shoot anything that goes overhead. we get in there, we start losing pilots and start losing planes and start getting captives. how can you bail out over damascus? >> any casual talk of a no-fly zone, even a sort of safe haven for refugees, you know, has to be looked at with a grain of salt. because of the sophisticated air defen...

This needn't have come to this place. i will say two years ago there were lots of groups in the fight that were secular is not the right word, but that were liberal, should we say, and that were not linked to al qaeda. but those groups were essentially pushed out of the night. al qaeda-connected groups were the only ones getting active outside help at the time and they took to -- they also, of course, many of them are experienced fighters from other conflicts so they were taking the sort of forward position. they led the fight. >> i understand. >> and eventually they came to dominate it. right...