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And they say they're not going to blink. i think it's just as mitch mcconnell laid out, ali. the republicans are saying, yes, we will raise the debt ceiling and that will happen by the end of the year, but republicans are saying, we are not going to do that until we have this plan in action that brings us to a balanced budget in 10 or 12 years. this is what any household would do, this is what any business would do if it gets into a real credit crisis. it reorganizes its debt, it changes its spending pattern so it can pay its bills. this is going to be a real mexican standoff with the presiden...

>> well, i think in two ways. first of all, i think the point you made, ali, before that this is really about americans agreeing to pay the bills they have already racked up. and there is no way to sort of rewind history. that is money that america owes other americans and owes pension funds, and it owes the rest of the world. and i think that people actually get that. sure, there is a lot of politicking around it, but people get that part. the other thing, and here i would slightly disagree with david who i admire and respect so much with his historical comparisons with previous debates about...

Government would default on its debt, the probability of that is very close to zero. the u.s. debt is still the one place that investors go whenever the world gets in trouble. so i don't think we're looking at an imminent default on debt, but i think the answer to your question, ali, about why these deficits and this enormous trillion and a half deficit per year matters to americans is it's like termites in the basement. they're eroding the economic foundation, and it collapses after a while. i think the longer implications would be higher interest rates and those have impacts on the american ...

Depression. i think it would plmake the las recession look tame and it would have permanent damage on our country. >> you started this discussion, so you pick it up. do politicians get what is at stake here as we debate not increasing the debt ceiling? >> i think so, ali. give some credit here to wall street executives. they're in the doghouse for so much. in this case, they really have been raising hell with republican leaders, making sure they understand, and i think john boehner has reflected that in his recent comments. and i think the politicians increasingly understand that it would be a...

Doesn't just matter what we think, what people in new hampshire or iowa think about it, it matters what people in beijing and dubai, who is america's creditors, think about it. and if america doesn't seem politically mature and serious, that can be a problem going forward. >> krista, i completely agree with what you just said, but that's exactly the reason -- it circles back, ali, to what we were just talking about, to why does this enormous debt matter? it matters because if we continue to borrow a trillion dollars a year, it erodes our ability to be competitive on the royal stage. our bigges...