And see what it amounts to. >> it's also interesting, because in the past, the president has continued to attack michael cohen. you know, in certain mob-like terms, referring to him as a rat. knowing -- it's interesting, though, to see how the president is going to react to his testimony, because, as you say, he doesn't have a cooperative agreement. if he has -- he may have more information that he could give to prosecutors, depending on how prison time goes for him, depending on how his feelings are toward the president as time goes by. >> right. and, look, it certainly doesn't have to be -- ...