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American public. it doesn't work for jobs, it doesn't work for our companies. >> at this point, i don't think the american people need to be informed of the problem. i think the american people are confused as to why the president and the treasury department have not stepped up to the plate to defend america and the biggest question is, how big is the onslaught of money as we know that the auction process is best to spend money to prevent legislation, that is why the banks spend money, that is why the health care companies spend money, that is why the energy companies spend money, is to preven...

Were increasingly given more and more contributions. and it was almost always the lawmakers who got more contributions from these industries that voted against the legislation that would reform it. >> and again, if you remember from our reporting on friday, 93 or 94% of the time, the campaign -- or the candidate who spends the most money wins. if you're wondering if money is determinative, the person with the most money wins. to that end, we did a podcast with tom ferguson at the university of massachusetts, political science professor, who basically described the entire political environment ...

Candidate ones or ones that are sort of associated with a political party, and that candidates can raise money for them. maybe leadership posts will go to those who can raise the most money for a super pac from a corporation or a union. >> and lisa, how distorting to a policy debate is it to have the chairmanship in committees, whether it's democrats or republicans, determined by an auction process for who can raise the most money? >> i mean, we aren't going to have an honest policy debate in this country if this secret dark money keeps coming into our elections. it's extremely distorting and ...

2012. >> and you would think as long as we keep the the gerrymandering, however, and the auction process, martin, for the process, whoever replaces them will likely be equally bought. >> yeah, if you have confidence that there will be a big wave election and everything will change again, you're not paying close attention. i mean, it's only fitting that this final debate of the year is another 11th hour crisis that congress created. i mean, we already almost had a government shutdown. remember, president obama went before the washington monument and said, thank you god the washington monument w...

But i think that is the job that we have got to undertake. >> and that would seem to be, if you look at the history of amendments and this sort of task to this magnitude, it will only be if everybody, this is not a left/right issue. you can only assert power on this level if you do it all together all at once, is that not correct? >> absolutely. we're going to need a real grass roots movement, and you're beginning to see it. i mean, this is what this occupying wall street is about. it's saying enough is enough. these guys on wall street have enormous power. they have done terrible destruction ...