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Say here's a different reason why we should shrink government and cut taxes for rich people. >> to that point though, that he is making, you have john boehner acting like it is four or five years ago, right? and let's take a look. here's what he told "good morning america" just this week, he said, quote, i believe that if we're going to increase the debt limit, there ought to be cuts and reforms in place that are greater than the increase in the debt limit. now, let's take a look at our projected deficit. as a percentage of our gdp, it is already flat lining for the next decade. it is like he ...

Proposed taking spending to that what i like to call one level. >> paul ryan is going to do it in ten years now, julian. community, one family, the >> no, he's not. that's john's point. american community, the american if you look at -- even at a family, the american house. my position is we all live in ten-year trajectory it doesn't the same house, and as dr. king work because they don't address entitlements in a way that said on one occasion, we must actually balances the budget in learn to live together as ten years. brothers and sisters or we will and john's other point i think is very, ve...

Reduction. again, our position here. i also categorically reject the krugmanesque notion that all the participating ceos disfavor the idea of short-term stimulus and are debt scrooges. an appreciation of the position of ceos like myself combined with a more generous reading of the november election results than is common, should help inform how the president, congress and business address the challenge of short-term economic growth and long-term deficits. and it leads to the conclusion that people like me might be of some help in breaking the gridlock. jane, i think we have a consensus except ...

Austerity plan, that would have an impact. democrats were for pouring more money into the compli with stimulus and republicans wanted austerity and jonas' point is an argument against what conservatives were pushing for. >> brenda: all right. toby. >> what's the question? >> driving a smart car. >> and we did a survey of 1500 small business peoples more in the 2%, revenue or earnings of more than $500,000. i would say that the actual statistics that we got, that the-- it was going to make on their business was much more about health care costs, obamacare than on the marginal right going up. be...

Even if you try to retroactively fix that middle of the year, the economic effects are very negative. so there's no interest i think on any party on going over the cliff. secondly, there are some cuts that go in automatically at the beginning of january that would be difficult to unravel, but you could, as ari said do, that theoretically. remember, the fiscal cliff is an idea that was put forward by republicans -- >> of course. >> as an austerity plan. i agree with ari in the sense that it's a total artifice. there's no reason why you necessarily need to have that, but railroad ama-- ari makes...