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Get to join nato or dictate its own neighbors decisions about who it gets to aally with. nato doesn't really think ukraine is ready. ukraine wasn't on the verge of joining in any way. so it's kind of manufactured by putin. the question is what is he really trying to get out of this? is he trying to destabilize a neighbor? does he actually have military aspirations here that would make any sense? i think that's the real problem for the west is sort of trying to divine what's going on in the mind of vladimir putin. >> well, to someone who's spent a lot of time trying to figure that very thing ou...

Clear that we are looking and taking steps that we've not taken in the past and that the consequences for russia would be severe and that's something that president putin is going to have to factor into his calculus. our strong preference is a diplomatic resolution of this challenge, but ultimately that's up to russia. >> joining me now is michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst and the best person to chat about this with us. the secretary of state said today he does not expect any breakthroughs this week but a sign that all parties are willing ...

Cia director burns doesn't know. sergei rib kof, the deputy foreign minister in geneva also doesn't know. to the best of my knowledge, nobody knows. that's exactly what putin wants. he wants uncertainty, he thinks that gives him leverage, and he's got some historical precedence for believing that's true. number two, though, andrea, i would say so far what we're hearing out of geneva is positive. they've agreed to keep talking that they're going to go through what i think will be more ritualistic talks in the russia nato forum and the osce, but the key thing for me is when -- there he is right ...

More familiar with than just about anybody else. do you sense that the russians are negotiating in good faith or are they simply going through the motions? >> craig, i don't know. peter baker doesn't know. the cia director bill burns doesn't know. president biden doesn't know. foreign minister lavrov doesn't know. that's exactly the way putin wants it. he likes the uncertainty, the ambiguity. he likes seeing us negotiate with ourselves. look what happened last week. during the tense moment, the president of france floated his own proposal. he likes seeing the tensions between germans and ameri...

Because, there is a cycle of escalation, and i do not see how now is going to be easy for him to get out all of this on the ukraine border from russia, but also from belarus, and elsewhere. >> michael mcfaul, this is your line -- your line of expertise. when you get out of something that looks like it will be military engagement, you need some diplomacy, you need some way of pulling out. does that weigh still exist? the u.s. government and the russians have not stopped talking, nato and russians have not stopped talking, there are conversations underway. is there a sense that this could end in...