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And adversarial relationships in life? what was its role if not to get information? >> oh, unfortunately the sad truth of torture, it's ostensible justification is to get information. it's actual use is to brutalize, to dehumanize, to demonstrate your superiority, to demean the other. that's a much more potent use through time. and if you look at what was done in this case, we have rectal examinations with excessive force. i mean, this is not an interrogation technique. this is a brutalization technique. this isn't about getting information. this is about demonstrating your actually visceral s...

And if you look at what was done in this case, we have rectal examinations with excessive force. i mean, this is not an interrogation technique. this is a brutalization technique. this isn't about getting information. this is about demonstrating your actually visceral superiority over these people and treating them like animals. that's the real danger. >> do you think, is it sadism? >> no, i don't want to say what's sadism. it was a horrible moment in american history. and i am opposed to prosecutions. let me just make that clear. i think we should just have complete transparency. bring all th...