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Private sector and we like having insurance and-- >> jonas, you have to have apples and apples. private health care system has rehe duesed their fraud to less than 1% they measure because it goes against the bottom line. the public health care, 10%, maybe 15, can't measure it and we have systems we could start on monday and push a button and three companies that could prevent-- >> i don't know if you've been to a hospital or doctor's office, they're using '90s technology anyway and up on post-its, it's not that high-tech at the doctor's office. >> i believe the segment is on fraud, okay, not o...

Government employee is to grow your power base. make it even bigger. that's why, toby is right, it's probably a factor of 10 to 20, to maybe 50. how much fraud is actually going on. probably in the billions of dollars. no one is losing their job, because the pie is big, i don't have a profit and loss statement to respond to, who cares? i'll grow it and say my gosh, we need more technology out there. >> jonas, you weigh in here. >> i don't know how little fraud there is in the private sector, either. and taxpayers don't have to pay for it like the government fraud, but every time you go to a st...

Interest on the debt and we have the revenue we bring in every year and we could cut the entire military, entire pentagon and not pay one dime of federal anything and still lose money. we have to deal with these entitlements. with the fraud, with the entitlements as a whole, but no one in d.c. is willing to do that. no one, it's pathetic. >> brenda: gary b, that's the question here, what incentives do the people have who are running this program have to get in and cut this fraud? >> exactly, brenda. look, fraud goes on in private sector, public sector, but here is the problem. in private secto...

And if you say, well, who cares where the money goes, the problem is government growth is always less inefficient than private sector growth and this is one step toward hopefully allowing the private sector to grow, tamping down on unions which i think have hurt many, many, many industries, despite the higher wages. in the union you have higher wages until you lose your job, and i think this is a step forward, this is progress, what needs to be done. >> brenda: you know, jonas, toby brought up a good point. which is that union membership has been declining for decades, record lows right now. s...