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Daily news," quote, when the whole thing is over, things might get cleared up with some presidential pardons. giuliani adding, i don't understand the justification for putting him in jail. you put a guy in jail if he's trying to kill witnesses, not talking to witnesses. however, he later downplayed those comments in an interview with nbc news, saying he would advise against a pardon. some mixed signals there. joining me now, ken dilanian, national security reporter for nbc news, michael schmidt is a reporter with "the new york times" and an msnbc national security contributor. amy rocha is a f...

And during the campaign, he was trying to monetize his service by offering private briefings to a russian oligarch, oleg deripaska. we know he was in contact with george papadopoulos, that young aide who was told by a russian agent that the russians had hacked the democratic e-mails before that became public. so one of the questions is did manafort learn about that? did he discuss that with donald trump? did he discuss the trump tower meeting with donald trump? was there ever any other kinds of discussions about what the russians, what help the russians were offering to the campaign. don't for...

Case of obstruction of justice, and manafort needed to go in. >> caroline, what do you make of that? you could make the argument, i imagine, from somebody trying to defend rudy giuliani here that, hey, yes, the president has the power to pardon. that's very clear. he can pardon anybody at any time for any reason. so if his lawyer goes out there and simply says, by the way, the president has this sort of unbridled power here, could a case emerge from that? >> we don't need to be reminded that he has the sort of unfettered power. that is true that it says so in the constitution and there are no ...

Alexandria jail, which is where a lot of high-profile white collar people end up. also he's facing trial in virginia, so that would put him closer to that vee. we just don't know at this point. >> caroline, ken is saying there the judge had no choice. here's a guy who's facing trial communicating with these witnesses, being told by another judge not to do that. you've got rudy giuliani out there, who is the president's lawyer now, was the united states attorney 20, 30 years ago in new york. he's saying you only do that when they kill witnesses, not when they talk to witnesses. what's your resp...