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David is a true philanthropist. charles is about changing the world. david has lincoln center named after him. charles has different activities. is there tension between the two brothers and how is that made manifest? >> well, i think the family story is one of the really most fascinating parts of who the kochs are and one ring i was interested in writing this book because you have the drama may plays out between the four brothers and two brothers square off, charles and david and first, bill and frederick. through 20 years of legal wrangling. so all of these guys are really interesting people...

They withstood the firestorm. >> mark, always good chatting with you. >> god bless, brother. >> if you have not listened to his show, he's been all over this. and just rabid about it. a lot of machinations on justice roberts he was talking about last week. last week. never mind the court ruled this mandate a tax. nancy pelosi finds the very word taxing. >> it's a penalty that comes under the tax code for the 1%, perhaps, of the pap legislation who -- population who decide they're free riders. >> it's a new tax. >> no, it's not a tax. it's a penalty for free riders. >> all right, you could te...