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Disastrous chechen war that at some moment both the significant, to putin's predecessor yeltsin. putin understands that. he wants to avoid it and just in case he wants to keep his military in line. he cannot tolerate a proper competition between his security services, so he cannot put his national guard against the army or the fsb against svr because it would be too risky for him, but to use someone like prigozhin who does have some independent income, but at the same time he doesn't have any political vacant apart from the one provided by putin himself. that seems to him to putin that it's a ...

Hill, they'll say we have to wait until the ukrainian counter offensive. clearly something has begun in terms of shaping -- like the incursion in bakhmut, but we're still waiting for the main event and i think it is anybody's guess. people are trying to be conservative and judicial in their predictions. people think that it will be much more difficult than the fall offensive when ukraine won back kharkiv and kherson. but at this point, people in the west say, in washington, at least in official washington, that ukraine has what it needs and they're waiting to see what happens. >> what is your ...

Prigozhin, and i think this is because putin doesn't have a real system of check and balances so he needs, specially with this war, he needs to rely on some completely unorthodox methods to keep his people, the military generals and his elites, if not under control, but a list of balance. prigozhin, who is happy to play the role of weak jester, while he is happy to provide putin with this option. so he's attacking these people sending a message that, look, you cannot be completely safe and nobody has any guarantees in this new russian system which is russia in 2023. >> so, julia, if -- if this...

Tolerate prigozhin and i think this is because putin doesn't have a real system of check and balances. so he needs -- especially with this war, he needs to reply on some completely unorthodox methods to keep his people, the military generals and his elites, if not under control, but at least off balance. prigozhin, who is happy to play a role of jester, while he's happy to provide putin with options or he's attacking these people sending a message that, look, you cannot be completely safe and nobody has any guarantee and this new russian system which is [ inaudible ]. >> so julia, if this is t...

Sense? i think we always thought putin was very tightly in control. and the russian state was a very tightly knit operation. that he and his security elites, the fsb and such, were in complete control. the defense ministry on the army saluted. does this suggest that it is not -- you know, it is not that much of a kind of a vertical of power as we used to think? >> well, i think that putin was very much in control in the security services were very much in control. but as with everything in russia, there are exceptions and they are corruption and stupidity, malfeasance and stupiditiy. and i sai...