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Protected the american people, number two. if you are going to go like panetta did and i know, as i said i know why pa panetta did t maybe we could have gotten it another way. okay, fine, fine. the fact of the matter is, these people are on the record as saying never works. coerced inhair gation never works, ba, ba, ba, ba. the value question. >> let me respond to that. let me just say that, in fact, the sequence, as i understand it from people in the intelligence community is that what ksm did was he lied about the identity of the courier and that set off the alarm. >> bill: that hasn't been ...

Number two. if you are going to go like panetta did and i know, as i said i know why pa panetta did t maybe we could have gotten it another way. okay, fine, fine. the fact of the matter is, these people are on the record as saying never works. coerced inhair gation never works, ba, ba, ba, ba. the value question. >> let me respond to that. let me just say that, in fact, the sequence, as i understand it from people in the intelligence community is that what ksm did was he lied about the identity of the courier and that set off the alarm. >> bill: that hasn't been confirmed, juan. that's just fl...

Crowley. look, maybe i am wrong but it looks to me like what the director is saying is we didn't trust pakistan at all. is that what you picked up from that? >> well, that is true. oddly those two statements are not contradictory. >> well, they are in a way that it misleads the american public to make an evaluation of whether the $3.4 billion should be sent to that country. so panetta says look, we didn't tell 'em because we can't trust 'em and they would tip off bin laden. and then secretary clinton says hold on, they helped us, we shouldn't be mad at them and i am not believing it. >> well, ...

Derived through those kinds of interrogations but i guess the question that everybody will always debate is whether or not those approaches had to be used in order to get the same information. and that frankly, is an open question. >> bill: okay. because mr. panetta works for president obama. he has to say that he has to hedge a bit. well, we don't know exactly how much information. we might have got, could have, maybe, had we not dunked the guys in the water, the three guys. okay, fine. i understand the game. i understand mr. panetta's position. but, again, the truth is that enhanced interrog...

Called it illegal since you don't hold any power that's your opinion. now, president obama and panetta, as you saw, all right? >> yes. >> bill: they are going to continue to do this kind of thing. what i don't understand is if you say it's illegal to attack the enemy by air, that's what this is, then is it illegal to attack them by ground? could we send commandos after al awlaki and cue him in the head? can we do that. >> first of all i disagree with you that they are the enemy. you have defined them as the enemy. >> bill: you don't believe al qaeda is the enemy of the united states. >> i don'...