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Violation of collateral criminal statute or collusion, if you end up in jail for five years. you know, there's a lot of pressure on a lot of people who are under inquiry to cooperate with mueller. i think after the fact of this indictment. >> michael, how easy or difficult is it to get a grand jury to indict? i mean, i know some people are critical of the process. say it's -- you can get them to indict anything. how do you see it? >> salami sandwich. >> ham sandwich used to be the phrase. >> right. one who doesn't eat ham, i don't know about that. but the reality is that prosecutors have a gre...

There's a decent chance he lied to the fbi. >> and i think it was michael who said earlier, or someone had said earlier, if it's paul manafort and it's financial, you know, relating to financial deals with ukraine, that could also send a message to michael flynn who had financial dealings with turkey. >> that's right. and it also could send a message to trump and kushner and cohen and others in the financial orbit of the trumps, that mueller does not accept "the new york times" red line in the sand. and that he's going to pursue those cases, and those -- it doesn't make a difference in some se...