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Of the book "how the catch a spy," welcome. and joyce, was this reporting of the michael cohen payments as avenatti said up to $4 million or the association with the president in that whole space there, what is standing out the you, joyce? >> well, the most important thing to focus on, richard, is that we don't have all of the facts that are necessary to form a judgment about whether cohen's conduct was merely swampy or whether it was krim a nal. -- -- criminal, and so we have to be aware of that and not too quick to rush to judgment, but because the decision s as are b us knowledge, we have t...

Worked on a potential pro-ukrainian, pro-russian deal. we don't know any of these things. but we're so beyond -- the bigger question in my mind is, how big is the fraud on the american people? are we going to actually clean house and start getting things in order? because this is just getting very, very disturbing. >> ken dilanian, your thoughts? >> chris, what we obviously have here is a massive influence peddling scandal. michael cohen is getting money from companies purely because of his access to donald trump. the question is, do we also have a russia connection? do we have a collusion con...

Counsel private plea agreement and also worked with former campaign chairman paul manafort who faces charges in washington, d.c. and virginia on money laundering and tax fraud. based on the court filings, special counsel investigators are exploring contacts between the men and individual connected to russian intelligence and that, of course, can get you to this idea of the russian collusion connection, shep. >> shepard: catherine herridge, thank you. >> you're welcome. >> shepard: all of this leads to will paul manafort stay the course playing defense or will paul manafort turn state's witness...