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What do you make of this development? is it significant? >> well, it may have some political significance. i'm not sure that it has any legal significance. it does indicate that, at the time that mueller was appointed, they weren't sure that they had evidence of collusion. but around that time they already knew, michael flynn had been lying to people about his contact with russia. if we are to believe mr. comey, anyway, the president has sought to slow down that investigation of mr. flynn or go easy on mr. flynn, which was one of the things -- along with firing mr. comey -- that triggered the ...

It's not -- one of the things -- and natasha did a great job of explaining paten's connection and all the internet connections and trump's best argument on the obstruction he's good. on the collusion front his argument is still i'm too stupid to understand what you're talking about. sessions was here but wasn't and patten, trump can say he was too much of an idiot, that trump was a useful idiot, robert mueller might -- i think we have to prepare ourselves for the possibility that robert mueller might honestly come up with the answer because it might actually be true that trump while he was kin...

Think donald trump has a lot of bravado. but he's not quite as dumb as some people think he is, and i think he recognizes that the jeopardy for him would be high. and as frank says, as this story is unfolding, it is clear that the legal jeopardy for donald trump is getting greater by the day. and, you know, you look at the ways in which on both the obstruction front that we've seen already and now on the collusion front which now suddenly has all this new life, not that it was ever gone away, but we're starting to see just a little bit of it. and someone i know who knows michael cohen very wel...

Going into that room. so i don't know whether he's going to end up talking to bob mueller. my guess is that the answer to that is no in the end because i think donald trump has a lot of bravado. but he's not quite as dumb as some people think he is, and i think he recognizes that the jeopardy for him would be high. and as frank says, as this story is unfolding, it is clear that the legal jeopardy for donald trump is getting greater by the day. and, you know, you look at the ways in which on both the obstruction front that we've seen already and now on the collusion front which now suddenly has...

Island professionally and politically. >> yeah. >> and so there's no motive at this point for him. in the accounts we're given -- were given at the time they took place. and there's a long pattern of projection. usually when trump or a soul mate like rudy calls someone a liar, it's because the president is the liar. what do you make of the fact that they're so triggered? >> think fear the obstruction case is a lot stronger than the collusion case, i would guess, that they might wiggle out of the collusion case by pushing it off to aides down the line. but they feel like they could wall off tru...