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Mueller is looking at crimes unrelated to collusion. because manafort engaged in activities that were collateral to the collusion inquiry, but mueller found to be legally actionable. and i think the same inquiry may be made of trump's financial dealings and kushner's financial dealings and flynn's financial dealings, and cohen's financial dealings. so the president may wish it so, but i think it is not. >> let's talk about wilbur ross. "the new york times" reports yesterday, let me read it to you, after becoming commerce secretary, wilbur l. ross jr. retained investments in a shipping firm he ...

The reaction of, this is all they got? manafort on some money from a hundred years ago? obviously there's nothing to this, otherwise they would have started with something about this campaign? >> well, i think ty cobb, counsel in the white house to the president on this matter knows better than to suggest that this is much ado about nothing. because until, first, we see the indictment and see what charges are made, we don't know how much there there is there. but i expect you're right, that the president, if it is just collateral tax charges that are disconnected to the conspiracy collusion in...

Guilty, that then they have something more to sell with respect to the collusion inquiry. because you have to remember it's collusion and then other things that may arise out of the investigation. this may be the arise out part, which leads back into the collusion, if there's a to her to tell there. >> carl, stunning night. >> well, jeffrey tu bin has got it exactly right. i've talked to some of the lawyers who knew this was coming. they believe that the intent is toe get one or more of these people to cooperate and turn over some more facts about what the prosecutors think may be a conspiracy...

Prosecutors, in the area of fraud, and corruption, and counterintelligence. he's got russian speakers as well on his team. he's got agents embedded in the prosecutorial team. they all have work streams. some will be working on the manafort quirly, some will be working on the flynn inquiry, some of them working on the obstruction of justice if that's a line of inquiry. all these teams will be working in parallel to one another. and they'll see as they progress, where the roads intersect. and mueller's team is known for its -- lead prosecutor weissman is a no-nonsense kind of guy. we saw that in...

There's a decent chance he lied to the fbi. >> and i think it was michael who said earlier, or someone had said earlier, if it's paul manafort and it's financial, you know, relating to financial deals with ukraine, that could also send a message to michael flynn who had financial dealings with turkey. >> that's right. and it also could send a message to trump and kushner and cohen and others in the financial orbit of the trumps, that mueller does not accept "the new york times" red line in the sand. and that he's going to pursue those cases, and those -- it doesn't make a difference in some se...