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In this particular case for a special counsel. and i think he's right because there's an inspector general. he has all the powers that you need and in fact, that's the job of the inspector general to investigate violations of laws or regulations within the department of justice and he even went one step further, steve. he assigned this investigation to the "uss attorney in utah to look into it further which is an additional step that may not be necessary but it is an additional step. and the notion that you need a special counsel for any wrongdoing to investigate any wrongdoing in the departme...

Fire mueller, then he'd go about doing it. on the other hand, if we see them shrinking from that criticism, it's a signal that it's out of his mind and he knows by this revelation that it will be an extremely unwise and unpopular move. >> but is it not impossible to read those signals? because you're talking about a week when you see members of the gop go after the fbi, go after a text with a secret society, forgetting if you're in a secret society, you never say it is a secret society. so there isn't a clear signal. people have had a lot of tough talk about president trump. people within the ...

>> i totally agree. sends a strong message to manafort and others they have a significant case, that the punishment on this, it's off the charts. talking $18 million of monies that are laundered, supposedly? it sends that message loud and clear. >> what's your sense, when you look at this, look at this indictment, and listen to what the wus said today and listen to these responses and say, this is evidence that they don't have enough on the, the collusion side of things. they don't have that information. is that true to you? >> i think there was evidence of collusion. i think you would have se...

Did they rely on a democratic commissioned opposition research document that was soursed by anonymous russians to get a wiretap on trump officials? that would be an enormous black mark on the agency. probably the worst going book to hoover. >> sandra: you end the piece by saying this investigation has a long, long way to go. let us hope with revelations too big for even the media to ignore, which is a really important way and an interesting way to end that piece considering we have seen the media somewhat quiet on all of this. >> it's remarkable. your last guest just talked about how few calls...

Special counsel robert mueller has reportedly interviewed a figure who may be key to unraveling the collusion side of the russia investigation and that is what bears out, has to do with a strange story reported in "the wall street journal." you may remember this, about a gop operative named peter smith who sought clinton e-mails, presumably the ones she deleted, from hackers before the election. he also sought help from a cyber security expert named matt tate who was so alarmed by the scheme he came out with his side of the story after it was all over, provocatively entitled "the time i got re...