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You feel about the independent counsel, by his own conduct he has deprived himself of the perceived legitimacy to govern. you need both political and legal legitimacy to govern this nation because the president must be able to demand an absolute sacrifice from the public at a moment's notice. >> i'm joined by two former acting solicitor generals, walter dellinger, neal katyal, whose latest book was invoked today by republicans in the hearing. i want to get your reaction to the arguments presented contra impeachment today both from the dais and from the witness. i'll start first with you, walte...

Crimes and misdemeanors. a lot of the history of the articles of impeachment included in the constitution, interestingly our founding fathers were worried about foreign interference. george washington warned of it. james madison said this is the gravest danger to the public. the idea there would be foreign interference in our election is a direct attack on the right of the american people to elect their own political leaders and decide their own future. the idea a president of the united states to help him and use taxpayer funded military aid as leverage to try to make that happen is shocking,...

That he's been investigated and cleared. but here they ellipsised out all the stuff which said biden didn't commit crimes and this justification makes no sense. so they're just striving to try and come up with whatever they can to defend this indefensible conduct by donald trump. >> chris, neal may have been misquoted, but i think he thinks that it may lead more republicans to buy his book. >> exactly. there was a book plug for you. >> i rarely get to ask a question, but to me the hardest strategic question is whether to go back and bring in the obstructions of justice recounted in detail in t...

He said he's friends with william barr, which made me a little suspicious. then he said he was opposed to the article iii of the impeachment of nixon. that's the one where nixon got impeached for failure to turn over items. he just wants the democrats to be dragged in front. it's weird and disingenuous, but what it's not is saying trump is innocent. he never said that what trump did is not impeachable. he just said investigate it more. >> there's a question here about all of this. it's very clear to me the members of the committee and the house democratic caucus view themselves as engaged in a...

Relentless obstruction of justice and attempt to interfere with that -- you know, with that investigation. russia, you know -- ukraine is small enough to be a province of russia. this is really all about russia and the president welcoming russian interference in our presidential election. i think they just can't leave that behind. >> that's a great point and a great question. neal, what is your thought on this same question? >> yeah. so i answer this in the book. i think that right now we have sufficient evidence for articles of impeachment with ukraine, with the quid pro quo, and with obstruc...