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That as inocue s. the prosecutors are saying there are five substantive areas. the real issue for prosecutors boils down to don't waste our time f. you are going to lie to us then don't come in or you will not get the benefit of what amounts to a constitutional contract because fundamentally what we have here is we have paul manafort or any other defendant who enters into a plea agreement with a cooperation component who is basically giving up his constitutional right to trial, constitutional right to appeal and various other constitutional rights such as cross examining witnesses. fundamental...

Which means he really has to specifically be knowledgeable about the law and intending to break it. i think that could still be a pretty solid area of defense for president trump. not that the payments weren't taking place but that he wasn't trying to unilaterally affect the campaign and use campaign finances for it. >> dana: let me ask you about a cooperation agreement. is it typical in a situation like this, that the public would get to read the cooperation agreement between michael cohen and the prosecutors? >> most of the time the cooperation component of a plea letter is camouflaged, file...

He doesn't want to talk about it more right now, but it seems to me he's sending a very clear message to the prosecutors that he would love to sit down and talk, he would love to have a deal. and i wonder if there aren't perhaps other charges that prosecutors might have filed against cohen this time around that he's worried, that they might file. so, i think the prosecutors feel they're in a strong position as he asks to talk and at some point they're going to be willing to listen. i know joyce vance is there. joyce, is that the way you read it? how do you see this unfolding? >> dan and i both...

Doing, he can expect to be cooperating and providing what's called substantial assistance in order to secure that precious 5k1 motion, that motion that the government will make if and only if cohen has cooperated enough to their satisfaction that it warrants a motion and cohen can get that precious level reduction at sentencing. it can make the difference of decades when it comes down to that final sentencing range. >> tom winter, i want to be clear on your understanding right now of this. pleading guilty, is there a cooperation component to this? what do we know about that? >> you're asking a...