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Do you think that's proven to be true in this as you learn more and more as giuliani's role becomes more aparent? >> not surprisingly so. there was description by john bolton as to rudy's drug role. >> now you have the context around that. > it would be hard enough to have the national security and diplomatic bureaucracy dealing with some kind of rogue operation, if the rogue operation was parallel but legal. but in this case, it appears that perhaps it wasn't even a legal road operation. that not only complicates things for the government officials that are supposed to be pursuing national se...

>> actually, not now. i don't think they have been watching the reports, but wait until they testify. >> so you think the testimony will be -- >> it is everything. you're going to see who i saw. you're going to see lieutenant colonel vindman. >> he is not on the list so far. will he be? are there negotiations to happen publicly testify? >> i don't think he will be able to avoid it. when you see witnesses like that willing to testify directly to what they heard, most important witnesses will be the witnesses on the call, the witnesses closest to the evidence we need. seems to me that we have en...

Of staff mulvaney. do you understand how he came to believe that this deliverable was necessary, and vindman responded i heard him say this was coordinated with white house chief of staff, mr. mick mulvaney. question, what desay? he said he had a conversation with mr. mulvaney. this is what was required to get a meeting. how significant is it to you that he testified the president's acting chief of staff directed this quid pro quo essentially? >> certainly gets it closer to the president, whether they'll claim the president had no knowledge of this we don't know yet. fiona hill gave the same t...