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That many of the people are actually gone? >> i think it's because there's a very serious thing they got wrong was that you can't on the wrong. when you use this extraordinary counterintelligence authority that we have under fisa to investigate american citizens in any case, let alone a case of this kind of significance, the only due process in america never gets is the meeting between the fbi, the justice department, and the fisa court and if they don't play by the rules, not really any recompense that can be had for that. >> harris: who was writing the rules? when you hear him say he was ove...

The 90s, there was this raging debate for that full decade in the law enforcement community about the wall between counter intelligence and criminal investigation. and how high it should be and whether it should come down and so forth. and then 9/11 happened. and we were supposed to trust that the elements put in place and the review by the higher ups and the fbi and doj would filter out these political potential uses of counterintelligence authority, which is very easy to get these warrants. very easy. and that didn't happen here. and if this is a habit of the doj and fbi, on any sort of basi...

Public interest. and again, for national security reasons i just mentioned, i don't think it is, not only do i think it's not a good idea, i think that it can also add to this pattern of potential obstruction by the president. >> well, look, you've got to believe that the president hasn't taken the time to do what what he could, right, which is get the actual details of what's in the fisa application. i never cease to be amazed, ken, that he would rather listen to fox that be pick up the phone and talk to people who have the actual answers within his intelligence community. but if that's why h...

Understand. it's one thing to do it 25 years later. it's another thing to do it right in the middle. >> yeah. >> as far as the motivations, you know, i think that if this is being done for self-preservation and not in the interest -- not truly in the public interest. and again, for national security reasons i just mentioned, i don't think it is, not only do i think it's not a good idea, i think that it can also add to this pattern of potential obstruction by the president. >> well, look, you've got to believe that the president hasn't taken the time to do what what he could, right, which is ge...

Do something, frankly, in the political arena. this was very abusive. and it is appropriate to have transparency here more than elsewhere. if you go all the way back to the 90s, there was this raging debate for that full decade in the law enforcement community about the wall between counter intelligence and criminal investigation. and how high it should be and whether it should come down and so forth. and then 9/11 happened. and we were supposed to trust that the elements put in place and the review by the higher ups and the fbi and doj would filter out these political potential uses of counte...