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Testify. in reality, is there any consequence anymore to defying a congressional subpoena? >> well, it really depends on whether or not the justice department under merrick garland and joe biden want to take the next step. i mean, being held in contempt of congress is something that has -- it happens in this country. politicians refuse to respond to subpoenas from congress and get held in contempt of congress and it doesn't really mean anything beyond that. but beyond that, there are steps that the justice department could take if they wanted to theoretically attempt to charge any of these ind...

There will be an independent investigation done by the sheriff or the prosecutor or both. there's certainly going to be an independent investigation. how compelling and how specific are allegations where in -- you're right, trace. there was definitely -- you could see she was nervous, telling the story of course she's nervous. she's a young woman taking on a powerful, political man that was her boss for a number of years. here we are with the allegations. now, it's really bold. i understand we'll have to see what happens with the attorneys that come forward. it should be focused on the due pro...

Of this. they have to be looked into. the understanding, the division this has created, the people who think donald trump -- they never accepted the election so they sought a criminal path to get them out of office. that's what they want to believe, to the point where the democratic right dull my first presidential candidate says that donald trump engaged in treason. we do need as a nation to have a full, fair, transparent accounting of what has been found. bob mueller, who i have defended since the day but mueller was hired because i still believe in his integrity, he owes it to stand with wi...

Migrant is that paradigm up by your boot straps and pull yourself ahead through hard work. there are plenty of americans, native born who fall into a criminal path and there are migrants as well. but as i said in the article, we know from statistics, from the justice department, that they represent a significant minority and so therefore, i found that it was and it continues to be anti-american. to demonize my dwrants as the scapegoats for people who are legitimately agrefd because of globalized economy may have passed them by in their factory town. >> were there moments, thinking like the tra...

Fellow at nyu law school. hue hewitt, also a lawyer and msnbc political analyst. let me start with you, liz. we heard from john mccain, bringing up the specter of watergate. we have to start with obstruction of justice. there are different rules for a president of the united states and somebody like you or me, a civilian, but is there anything that you see here, hard, solid evidence, that would lead you to go down that path? >> well, two paths here. one is a criminal path. the other is the impeachment path. we have substantial evidence at least suggesting that the president has engaged in an a...