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We also know certainly the special prosecutor wants him badly. they are leaning on him with the full power of that office. >> gloria brought up this issue, paul manafort legally seems to be in deep trouble and now rick gates you have testifying against you, presumably, should manafort be throwing all his chips on the president giving a pardon. >> i think at this point, it would be so politically incendiary, it looks so much that trump was doing it to protect himself. even donald trump who doesn't fear the consequences of a lot of what he does, wouldn't take the risk of the backlash that he wou...

He said i continued to maintain our innocence. that shows how linked he is with rick gates. he still speaks of him as a team. gates has now admitted that he engaged in many interlocking conspiracy with manafort. tax laws, campaign financing laws, foreign reporting laws. now heavily documented. and it makes manafort situation desperate. >> you have the deputy chair flipping, what could it mean for the chair. paul manafort seems like he is fighting. >> his lawyers indicate that he is. maybe he is fighting until he is not fighting anymore. they have a suit that they filed in federal court against...

>> gates seems to have been there every step of the way not just before but during as well. maybe he knows. and maybe that is what the special counsel offered. john dean, do you believe manafort will have a breaking point here? is it inevitable? >> i agree with jeffrey, i think he will. at some point he is risking the rest of his life in prison and he is not that young a man. i think at some point he has got to. and i don't think the pardon is a solution. there are state offenses here as well. could be charged by virginia and new york for tax violations that could not solve his problem. no qui...

Manafort. >> you think it is inevitable at this point that manafort will cop a plea. >> i don't see any way he can take this case to trial. the enormous expense and the stakes for him. if he testifies and lies to the judge and is convicted, he could be spending the rest of his life on prison. and if he testifies, he won't. >> these crimes that we are talking about gran well before the campaign although, the scheming and the money laundering and other things that were going on here, during the campaign, and of course paul manafort was a central figure in the campaign and he was at the trump tow...

He is squeezing him probably for a good reason. we know he is interested in the trump tower meeting but we also know that paul manafort has relationship with the pro putin ukrainian president that goes back some time and earned him an awful lot of money. he may be interested that or may be interested in the platform at the republican convention dealing with ukraine. we really don't know now. but if you look at people in this campaign who were openly involved with russia before they came into the campaign, i think you would have to point to paul manafort. so there has got to be something there ...