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Led to bad guys being stopped from doing bad things. i think it's probably a little over reach to say that we would have stopped 9/11 if this program was in place. we don't know what people would have done with that information. but to me, the issue is this, that i think administration needs to give the american people more credit. i think we should have a much more public debate about private programs, not giving out detailed information but leveling with the american public about what kind of information that administration thinks it needs. my problem is that so much of the war on terror is ...

>> and lenny working for god knows what contractor and pull down numbers and fund find out where people are and have been. >> but you don't know what numbers are attached to. >> believe me, these gnomes can do this kind of stuff. >> that's a fair criticism and that's why sand is squishy. i think it is something that you have to have extreme oversight for. >> overshane, how about the e-mail thing? whistle-blower now in china, i think. is saying that the nsa is taking e-mails. american e-mails and reading them and storing them. he you can't be for that, are you? >> of course not. i have a proble...

Groups, no data collection programs for americans. issue after issue, the administration has been caught. >> it is not just the obama administration. you can't trust any government agency. >> right exactly. benjamin frankly was right about sacrificing liberty -- >> you have to sacrifice a little bit but you can't have them doing this. >> this is a philosophical argument. i want to get into stuff -- >> it is not philosophical to say there is a pattern of lying to the american people about targeting adversaries. >> they are taking on water big time, and they should. but all administrations take ...

Statute limits the government to those records that are relevant? if they're reality, that -- relevant under your interpretation means that anything and everything goes, and that is what you didñr in te example you just gave me. >> that congressman, john conyers of michigan, warns we could be on the verge of becoming a surveillance state. last week's leaks indicate a secret court order lets to the feds pull phone data on millions of verizon customers. now we have new reaction from the white house. >> the white house isç backingp nsa director general keith alexander, who claims the controver...

Director testified that, quote. dozens of terrorist events were disrupted, democratic senators ron why den and mark urdahl early critics of these programs saying quote: the house is backing up alexander who claims controversial data collection programs are providing primary investigative leads. >> these programs authorized by congress overseen by congress and federal judges, overseen with internal checks and balances within the executive branch, were found to be directly effective in thwarting terrorist attacks. >> but critics say the initial credit critical needs of the new york city subway k...